234 replies to this topic

[danthecpman]

andycpuk, on 23rd March 2011 - 19:04 PM, said:

Just for the record I do not believe or agree with anything Vic says.

Andy

im with you andy :) seems like pointless bickering to me and most of phils replies have been twisted and changed.

Anyhoo im happy with the CPS as im sure most of the other members are.

Dan

[Vic2]

andycpuk, on 23rd March 2011 - 19:01 PM, said:

Does anyone believe/agree with what Vic says? Some of it or all of it?
Is Vic doing this for revenge, spite, to get his own back?
Is this damaging the CPS?
If Vic gets his own way and committee members do resign will the CPS survive?
Do people care what happens to the CPS?

For the record, from my perspective Andy and CPUK have never taken sides in this.
I understand that he is under severe pressure to suppress dissent by me, and needs to distance CPUK from this debate.
I respect his even-handed integrity - and sheer courage - in allowing this debate to continue.
(Very sorry to cause you grief, Andy: I apologise that I couldn't find a better way).

The proof is there, for all to see:
No comment - ever - by the CPS Chairman and Vice-Chairman.
And this is covered up by the Society at every available opportunity.

I would welcome other comments.

The only person who can tell you if it's for revenge, spite, etc. is me.
I can categorically deny that it is for any of these things.
I am on a crusade - though sadly without a white charger and much-needed body armour -  to shift two neglectful, selfish and uncaring individuals from critical positions of power within the CPS, which they will not relinquish even though they won't do the work and responsibilities required of these leadership and Trustee posts.

They are also amiable and excellent CP growers, which is probably why they have got away with it for so long.

CP's in the UK, their conservation and their growers are suffering as a result.


The elections at the AGM have been arranged so that it is easy for these two gentlemen to stay in their posts.

Consider it a flaw in my character if you will, but I cannot stand by and watch a Society, of which I am very fond, be screwed by a selfish and uncaring Chairman and Vice-Chairman.

To shut me up, all Steve Cottell has to do is personally post a statement on this forum as outlined previously. The CPS Secretary has made a rash post on behalf of the Society, and it is the Chairman's personal duty to respond for the Society on such a serious matter.

Steve Cottell has until the 28th March to show that he is in fact a Chairman, and not a self-interested and neglectful individual occupying critical positions as Chairman and Trustee that would be better filled by Tim Bailey, Dennis Balsdon or Flick Foreman, for the good of the CPS, our plants and our growers.

I'm deeply sorry to have to inflict pain on the Society in this way. I tried quietly within the Committee, but this appears to be the only way to  save the Carnivorous Plant Society of the UK from deep-seated, long-term neglect and abuse from within.

I look forward to reading your views, people...
Am I wrong to try and change things for the better?


Vic

P.S.
I would like to thank those people who have been kind enough to support my campaign from the sidelines. I won't embarrass you in public - you've all seen how the Society has tried to discredit me for telling the truth - but thanks, guys and gals   I needed to know it wasn't just me who was disgusted by the situation within the CPS. It needs to change, or CP's and their growers in our fair land will continue to suffer for it.

Edited by Vic2, 23 March 2011 - 21:50 PM.

[mobile]

I do have one complaint about the CPS and that is with communication, in particular internet/email. The CPS website looks outdated and the information on it is outdated too. Some example are:

• On the Home>Members News>Member Only, the 'new' news is the 'Treasurer's Report April 2009'.
  
• The meetings page is still 2010.
  
• The 'new' newsletter is June 2009, and the latest one I have access to is 'The CPS News No.3 Dec 2009'.
  
• The 'NewsFlash' has a entry about Paul Mckeown's open day - which was last year.
  
• The last entry on the Conservation page is 'Irish Peatland Conservation Council - 2004.'
  
• The promotions page has a contact link for David Tite and the order form has David's address on; however, he is not listed as a committee member on the 'Committee Contacts - Email' page and Steve Taverner is listed as the promotions officer.
  
• As an eMember my subscription expired without me realising, as no notifications are sent to inform members and nothing that I can find on the site that states what date it expires.
  
• Renewing membership took 5 days, which is quite long considering payment is instant via PayPal.

To be perfectly honest, I no longer visit the site, as there is nothing new. This is not a good advertisement for the CPS, especially considering that younger growers are likely to seek information via the internet.

I realise that committee members give up their free time for CPS duties but I honestly think that more effort needs to be concentrated on the internet site and services to their eMembers.

[Phil Green]

As Andy has asked, I'll add my opinions.

I don't know anything about the inside workings of the CPS so don't know if what Vic says is true or not. Nor do I intend to take side on the Vic verses CPS issues - I suspect there are faults on both sides.

But I do consider that there are long standing problems with the CPS. The CPS is very bad at passing on information (often important info) to it's members, and often only does so once a thread appears on here asking what is going on. Even then, the info goes on here, but not their web site - which is where it should be!

For many years, their web site has been effectively dead and virtually always long out dated info is on it. The info on the home page about "Planta Carnivora - Newsletter and Journal of the CPS" is all about the problems with the Spring 2010 edition and expected delays with the Autumn one - Nothing about what is happening with this Springs edition. Yes I know Tim has told us on here - but why nothing on the CPS web site ??

Like wise with the EEE this should be a really BIG DEAL,  but with the exception of a couple of lines mentioning the EEE blog, there is nothing about it and no link to the EEE web site. Given how long it is likely to be before the UK holds this again, there should be no way that a casual visitor to the CPS web site can leave without knowing ALL about it.

I feel that rather than attract new members, the CPS web site actual puts off members.
I know Tim is trying really hard to sort out and improve the CPS publications and I do not attach any blame for problems on him - but sometimes using the cheapest quote or 'friends' to do something, just causes more problems than it is worth. If you feel someone is 'doing you a favour' it is hard to push them or complain about their lack of progress. I suspect Tim is even more frustrated with the continual delays than I am.

So basically, if things don't start to improve, I won't be renewing my membership in 2012.

and that is ALL I am going to say on this matter.


EDIT - I took so long to carefully write this, that I now see I'm not the only one with complaints about communications and the outdated web site.

Edited by Phil Green, 23 March 2011 - 21:51 PM.

[mobile]

Phil Green, on 23rd March 2011 - 21:47 PM, said:

EDIT - I took so long to carefully write this, that I now see I'm not the only one with complaints about communications and the outdated web site.

Sorry, beat you to it, but the state of the website is a real bugbear to me. I am an avid internet user but find the CPS website somewhat pointless and possibly even has a negative effect.

Phil Green, on 23rd March 2011 - 21:47 PM, said:

So basically, if things don't start to improve, I won't be renewing my membership in 2012.

Given the lack of 'value' offered to eMembers, you will not be the only one.

[Vic2]

Phil Green, on 23rd March 2011 - 21:47 PM, said:

So basically, if things don't start to improve, I won't be renewing my membership in 2012.

mobile, on 23rd March 2011 - 21:57 PM, said:

Given the lack of 'value' offered to eMembers, you will not be the only one.

Guys,

I know it's pretty incredible coming from me, but IMHO please stay with the Society; all that is needed is effective change at the top, for things to get better in the CPS. It could become a powerful, proactive  force for the good of CP's and growers in the UK, like the ICPS over the other side of the pond, and Carnivora closer to home.

Again IMHO, just convince Tim and Dennis to stand for Chairman and Vice-Chairman and Trustees at the AGM - with a secret ballot of the entire membership for individual posts, so no-one gets embarrassed or left out - and the improvements we all want will start.

(Don't worry - there's no way on this Earth that they'll let me back in!!)  

Look-on-the-Bright-Side of Letchworth

P.S.
I still think Flick is an excellent Treasurer and a babe...    He's a lucky guy, Flick!

Edited by Vic2, 24 March 2011 - 06:27 AM.

[mobile]

Just a thought, but have CPS committee thought about asking the forum members here for some help with design and content on the website. I know that one forum member is a professional graphics artist and there are several other talented artist. Some of us have websites too, so there is some coding experience. If others are willing to get involved in design and coding then perhaps a thread could be started on CPUK for suggestions on content and features. For instance, you could allow Facebook login to certain areas of the website, encouraging people to post links on their wall which might lead to new members through increased awareness. Or what about an open area where people can submit content, e.g. a blog. If the CPS could get a good 'storefront' then this might help attract new members and in turn drive changes within the organisation.

[Amar]

An excellent idea, Carl.

[gardenofeden]

I agree with a lot of what others including Phil have said.  Not knowing the current inner workings of the committee, apart from Vic2's accounts, it is difficult to make a judgement.  All we see are the products of the committee, so a programme of meetings, events, website, seedbank, Journal etc. On the whole, these products have not changed much to the outside viewer over the last several years, seedbank is much improved (well done Sheila!).

Communication has always been an issue.  E-mail is supposed to make things quicker, but it does not always.  I sometimes forward interesting bits of information on to committee members, via the website links, but never sure if they have got them.  For example, I thought that the CPS should register as a charity with eBay and allow people to donate a proportion of their auctions via their eBay sales... I know I would... and forwarded details to the committee, never sure they got it, the CPS remains unregistered.

Many of the committee have no Internet presence, I would expect most of the committee to be registered on the forum and be able to contribute and put forward views on behalf of the committee.  If not, why not?  Presence is important, especially the chairman.

Website is bad, and I agree puts people off.  A bad website can do more harm than good.  This really is an area where we have to improve.

Would I leave the society?  No, I think that change is always best done from within, much more positive and likely to succeed.  We should continue to be members and fund the society, and push for positive changes where we think they are required.  The seedbank is a good example, where concerted pressure from members resulted in a vast improvement.

Remember we have an AGM, with opportunities for members to voice concerns and put forward proposals; I don't think this mechanism is used as much as it should be.  If you don't think that Steve is doing a good job, then get someone to propose you as chairman and see if you can do a better job!  (except Vic2 of course, you're barred   )

I think the phrase is "stand up and be counted"...

Edited by gardenofeden, 24 March 2011 - 13:34 PM.

[mobile]

Stephen, how do we push through change when it appears that no one is listening? As has been pointed out by yourself and others, communication is poor and there is rarely any indication that anyone is listening. I can never make the AGM, as I supsect is the case for many others, so it's hard to have a voice when it appears that no one can hear you or is listening. I have emailed committee members in the past only to receive slow, no or 'that's the way it is' replies. I note that thus far no members of the committee have replied in this thread since others than Vic have commented, so it will be interesting to see if we do get a reponse and whether it is proactive.

[Tim Bailey]

Phil Green, on 23rd March 2011 - 21:47 PM, said:

As Andy has asked, I'll add my opinions.

I don't know anything about the inside workings of the CPS so don't know if what Vic says is true or not. Nor do I intend to take side on the Vic verses CPS issues - I suspect there are faults on both sides.

But I do consider that there are long standing problems with the CPS. The CPS is very bad at passing on information (often important info) to it's members, and often only does so once a thread appears on here asking what is going on. Even then, the info goes on here, but not their web site - which is where it should be!

For many years, their web site has been effectively dead and virtually always long out dated info is on it. The info on the home page about "Planta Carnivora - Newsletter and Journal of the CPS" is all about the problems with the Spring 2010 edition and expected delays with the Autumn one - Nothing about what is happening with this Springs edition. Yes I know Tim has told us on here - but why nothing on the CPS web site ??

Like wise with the EEE this should be a really BIG DEAL,  but with the exception of a couple of lines mentioning the EEE blog, there is nothing about it and no link to the EEE web site. Given how long it is likely to be before the UK holds this again, there should be no way that a casual visitor to the CPS web site can leave without knowing ALL about it.

I feel that rather than attract new members, the CPS web site actual puts off members.
I know Tim is trying really hard to sort out and improve the CPS publications and I do not attach any blame for problems on him - but sometimes using the cheapest quote or 'friends' to do something, just causes more problems than it is worth. If you feel someone is 'doing you a favour' it is hard to push them or complain about their lack of progress. I suspect Tim is even more frustrated with the continual delays than I am.

So basically, if things don't start to improve, I won't be renewing my membership in 2012.

and that is ALL I am going to say on this matter.


EDIT - I took so long to carefully write this, that I now see I'm not the only one with complaints about communications and the outdated web site.

Dear all

Lots of promotion is going on re the EEE and we expect around 10,000 people to visit the Zoo on each day. Unfortunately a lot of this is not visible, though I hope the Blog is seen as something positive. Since doing the CSP Blog we've had 2200 hits and more content is to be added too. We will also be doing some media stuff at the right time.

There is an update pending on the EEE for the CPS Website. I appreciate your kind words Phil and what others have said in the past, but just want to say I'm not blameless and will do my best to plug anything I'm behind in.

I've brought forward my side by six weeks re the Journal to give our Graphic Designer more time and take risk out of delays. Once I've got the EEE out of the way I will extend this further, other than the last minute things that need to go in. I'd rather try and manage it in that way to keep cost down, though rest assured I am listening to what you and other members have to say. And yes the frustration does my head in.

Phil, you tend to end your emails like this by saying you'll leave the Society if things don't change. Lots of things are improving (though I'm the first to accept more still needs to be done), and for a very small fee members receive quite a lot of stuff. Last year we gave out a cultivation guide, two full-colour journals, a fantastic seed bank, Silver at Chelsea, NEC, events, etc, etc. last year/this year we are also delivering an EEE in 9 months, which is no small feat. Whenever I hear those words, it makes my heart sink and feel like giving all this up for a quite life. I estimate I've put over 400 hours into the CPS stuff in the last twelve months, I gave up my second business last April to concentrate of the CPS stuff at a loss of £200 a month (my choice as I get a lot out of doing my bit, but I don't miss the VAT return), spend a lot less time with my kids than I should, often give up leave to do things (including shows), drive my wife mad, etc. Other Committee members put huge amounts of hours in and give up lots of their things too.  I state this not for a pat on the back, but to show part of our side to this.

Tight traps

Tim

[mobile]

Tim,

I don't think that anyone is accusing you of not doing your part. In fact, from what I have observed, you do substantially more than your fair share. However, you are not a one man committee and others should be lending a hand too. I'm sure that EEE 2011 will be a great success and the website is attractive, though doesn't render correctly in IE - don't know if you've noticed? However, anyone visiting the CPS site could easily miss the fact that this event is happening. I would guess that a lot of the hits come from elsewhere than the CPS site. Who is the CPS internet admin nowadays?

[Vic2]

gardenofeden, on 24th March 2011 - 13:28 PM, said:

(except Vic2 of course, you're barred   )
I think the phrase is "stand up and be counted"...

Aw, really Stephen...?  

For the life of me, I can't think why...  

Well, to be truthful (once again), this was suggested when I was part of the Committee. I've said from the beginning that I have too many commitments outside the CPS to give enough time and effort to the Society as Chairman, so I wouldn't stand for election to that post.
Besides, I genuinely don't want the power of being a Trustee; there is always the stark possibility that I might turn into a megalomaniac and enjoy wielding it!!  

Entirely academic issue now, of course...  

Yours from the darkly remote wilderness,

The-Devil-Incarnate of Letchworth    

Edited by Vic2, 25 March 2011 - 06:00 AM.

[David Ahrens]

It is actually quite nice for a topic like this to be allowed to run for a while. A few years ago, moderators like Aiden just wouldn't have let it run and would have stopped it very early on.
David Ahrens

[Vic2]

David Ahrens, on 25th March 2011 - 06:24 AM, said:

It is actually quite nice for a topic like this to be allowed to run for a while. A few years ago, moderators like Aiden just wouldn't have let it run and would have stopped it very early on.
David Ahrens

If you can't show that it's wrong or dishonest, it seems that one excellent way to suppress dissent and hide stuff is to prevent any mention of it being published.

I hear on the grapevine - not from them, incidentally - that Andy and the mods have been taking a severe earbashing in private for CPUK's fair-minded support of free speech.

I am very sorry to be the catalyst for it.

But I'm not the cause:
That desperately needs to be dragged into the open, acknowledged and resolved.
Sadly, time has shown that's not going to open up or resolve by itself.

I really, genuinely wish it were otherwise.
For the CPS, CPUK, for everyone in the UK (including me!) who enjoys these magnificent plants, in cultivation and in the wild.

You're brave and principled people,  Andy and Co.  

(And no, I'm not crawling!)  

Vic

P.S.
To this day, I can't understand why Steve and Paul's monumental neglect is being covered up so ferociously by the rest of the Trustees and Committee.
The Chairman and (de facto) Vice-Chairman can't be bothered to defend their neglect.
This topic - and several others - have shown that they won't help other Trustees and Committee members when they needed it, in return.

Other than that the CPS Trustees have known each other a long time, does anyone know why?

[Jerry]

I have been following this over the recent past and as a complete no-one and a relatively new member I thought a view from the bottom of the CP ladder would be benficial. First things first the financial allegations made by Vic2 are serious. I assume that as a charity the books are open to the public and that under the Freedom of Information act all charities books are available at companies house so this can be settled once and for all. I have no idea what happened in the past and quite frankly I dont care - I think Cameron and Clegg called each other all kinds of names in the past but now they are screwing the country in partnership.

I agree totally that the single biggest issue with the CPS and actually this forum is the complete lack of concise information - presented in an attractive user friendly way. Lets be honest here - this forum is not user friendly. Type something into search and you get pages of hits that contain the key word you typed. There are far better ways to store and scan information than a bespoke word search system with a yellow block highlighting your key word. Just one example - as a relative beginner try typing in seed germination. Then good luck! I speant an hour trawling through the hits and i am not sure i am any the wiser. Is the seedbank open? I know a lady called Sheila has been desperately unwell and she needs all the rest she can get and i wish her a full recovery. I feel guilty sending in a seed request - if a lady with two new lungs has to find them I would rather not worry her.

I didnt know there was a meeting on April 9th - cant get to it anyway but I definately did not know. Surely the more people that get to these meetings the more vibrant and creative they become. I have a degree in Marketing and before i became ill worked as a marketing director. Now thats just me - I know very little but i could certainly help make a website get more clicks by using a few "tricks". Where are the e-mails asking what any of us could contribute? Its a simple thing but by getting more involved it removes the "them and us" atmosphere which is what this whole thread is feeding on. None of us know what happened and dont want to - it sounds to me like toys are leaving prams on both sides. Why has it never been suggested to create sub sections. Mike King is one hour up the road from me and PJ plants 15 mins away. There will be others. I would like to share time with fellow enthusiasts without it being an open day. Just for a pint - I cant get to Surrey on the 9th April (actually it may be Sussex) so i meet our comittee once a year at Chester this year or more than likely not at all. Cant there be local initiatives to increase membership and therefore revenue. The merchandise section is woeful. Okay if you are over 50 or so deep in the hobbey that you dont care what you look like but I am not the CPS equivalent of a train spotter. I have posted before that this hobby has more than one beneficial effect. Tell a 13 year old boy on a street corner that he can come and grow some plants and you will be told what to do - tell a 13 year old boy on a street corner that he can come and grow something that swalllows wasps and you get somewhere.

These are just a few of my thoughts but i really do believe that its time we dragged this brilliant and highly addictive past time into the 21st Century.

[mobile]

Jerry, on 26th March 2011 - 20:19 PM, said:

These are just a few of my thoughts but i really do believe that its time we dragged this brilliant and highly addictive past time into the 21st Century.

Unfortunately, I fear that yours and others thoughts and suggestions are falling on deaf ears.

[Mags]

Jerry, on 26th March 2011 - 21:19 PM, said:

The merchandise section is woeful. Okay if you are over 50 or so deep in the hobbey that you dont care what you look like but I am not the CPS equivalent of a train spotter.

Hi Jerry, I have to say I agree with you 100% on the merchandise !

[dennisB]

Hi

I just thought I'd add a few comments as membership secretary.

Value for money:   UK membership costs 20p per week for an E member and 25p for a postal member.  For that you get two journals, two newsletters, free visits to Kew Gardens and RHS Wisley, one of the largest seed banks in the world, an AGM and end of season meetings, society stands and RHS Chelsea and Gardener's world shows, coordination of around 20 open days, support for conservation/research both in the UK and doverseas.  Recently there has been a new growing guide and this year the EEE.  We have managed to hold membership fees static for the last 10 years despite huge increases in postal charges, printing costs etc.
Our membership fees are lower than the ICPS and, to the best of my knowledge, other European CP societies.  

Renewal dates.  All journal address labels show your renewal dates and I am working on getting this shown on email communications too.  It is not unreasonable to expect members to make a note of their renewal dates.  We also give members 3 months grace after their membership expires.  

AGM.  I have attended all AGMs since I became a member.  I cannot remember any occasion when there was a competition for election to committee posts despite the question being asked by the chairman at each AGM.  I think I can speak for the committee in saying that we would welcome more volunteers and competition.
All you have to do is get a proposer and seconder and a vote would be taken.  One other thing - only 10% of members turn up at AGMs.  If you want to have your say, come along to the AGM on Saturday 9th April at East Horsley Village Hall, Kingston Avenue, East Horsley KT24 6QT.

The Website:  We are aware that the website requires updating and Darren is working on this.  Up to now we have depended on such web expertise as can be provided free by volunteers - some of whom have left at short notice.  Contact Darren if you could help.  We could of course spend a few thousand getting a professional to do it for us.

Active membership.  The committee would love for more members to become more active in supporting the society's current events and in proposing more activities the society could undertake.  The same small group of members attend open days, meetings etc and even fewer volunteer to help at Chelsea and the NEC.  The society belongs to its members but it sometimes feels that we are operating in a vaccuum.  Get involved!

And finally to end my (hopefully good natured) rant, a few words in support of the Chairman.  Steve has been a tremendous chairman of the society for many years who has worked tirelessly for the good of the society.  Last year for instance he put together the RHS Chelsea and Gardener's World stands at short notice.  Neither would have happended without Steve.  

Regards to all

Dennis

[sumatra]

I have been a member of CPS for decades - longer I suspect than most of the complainers.
I simply want to say that people should remember that in the past, the CPS was virtually the only source of authentic information, plants and seeds and communication with other enthusiasts that existed in the UK and come to that, Europe. It was miles ahead of anything else available at that time.
Things have now moved on and there are now numerous good sources of plants, many more published books and of course, the internet.
The internet has changed so much and I think the only valid issue with the CPS is the website.
The problem here is that people are making comparisons with professionally or commercially operated websites and obviously the CPS falls short of those standards. But unless you are prepared to volunteer, and have the necessary expertise, and above all the commitment to maintain it on a very regular basis, you have little scope for complaint. I can't help and I don't complain.
But I do remember the enormous value the CPS has added to CP interests over many years and appreciate what they still do for a very modest subscription.
I am not interested in comments from people who are expressing very personal and sometimes obviously plain nasty opinions - and such people are usually those who find it difficult to work with others on a committee, but blame others.