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CPS committee changes debate


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#161 mobile

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 14:31 PM

I am particularly incensed by a suggesstion that the committee cannot be trusted to run an election honestly. There is no conspiracy to stop any member from being on the committee. The problem has been that it is difficult to get anyone to volunteer particularly when they realise the amount of time required.

If you are referring to my comment...

Any postal votes would need to be counted by a totally independent person, i.e. someone not affiliated with the CPS in any way.

... then you have misinterpreted the reason I made this comment. If you allow members to count the votes then you leave yourselves totally open to accussations of vote fixing by those who may have some 'grudge' towards the elected members. By having these votes counted by someone totally independant you avoid this.

#162 Vic2

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:22 PM

Voting via CPUK would also be problematic. We would need to set up a member's only area. Any volunteers to keep that updated for over 400 members?

We have had committee elections at the AGM since the society was formed 30 odd years ago. No one has raised the issue before but now that someone has, the Scoiety will put it to the membership to vote on even though the issue was raised by a non-member. Democracy in action.

In the email discussions I have had with other committee members the concensus is in support if that is what the members want.

Voting for Trustees is slightly more problematic. Charity Commission guidance states that some officials (committee members like the chairman and treasurer) should also be Trustees. They further say it is the responsibility of the existing Trustees to ensure that new Trustees are not legally disbarred from being Trustees (ie each new trustee would have to be vetted by the existing trustees). Appointment of new Trustees without a vote is recognised by the Commission as an acceptable method particularly where the new trustee brings some required expertise. It is the way the majority of charities operate. Certainly the RSPCA has never given me the chance of voting for their Trustees.

With regard to claims that the the Society is not meeting its charitable aims - the Trustees are required to send a statment of our activities to the Commission each year so that they can check that is what we are doing. To the best of my knowledge we have never been challenged on this.

I suspect that members will be ballotted on whether to have full member voting and, if the majority vote for it, volunteers with proposers and seconders will be sought. The ballot will be held, he results will be published and the new committee formed. Democracy in action. This will not happen before the AGM because of time constraints.

I hope that as many members as possible attend the AGM - particularly those who raised their concerns on CPUK about the existing committee. If you are a member and cannot attend but would still like to raise an issue you can contact me on cpsmembers@blueyonder.co.uk. I will bring it up and give you a response. I believe the Treasurer and Secretary have made the same offer.
Regards
Dennis Balsdon

Thank heavens for Dennis Balsdon! :yes:
A voice of reason and consideration for members, to counter the (dare I say) undeniably Stalinist views of the CPS Secretary.
For a minute there, I was worried that Phil was speaking for all the Trustees and Committee. Phew... :yes:

Nice to hear that the concensus of the Committee is in favour of doing what the members want! :rolleyes:

Re. Dennis's points above:

The CPUK member's area only needs to be updated once a year. I volunteer to do it. :yes:
As you know, I've done this for the CPS before.

Voting for Trustees normally wouldn't be an issue. But Steve and Paul have proved themselves to be neglectful and self-interested, to the point that the Society's legally charitable aims are demonstrably not being met. (CP conservation, and an enormous pile of members' money dawdling in the bank for years, in case you ask again!)
If voted out of office as leaders of the CPS, a prime concern is that Steve and Paul would retain control within the CPS by remaining as Trustees. Steve and Paul have used their positions as Trustees to bring in their long-time friends, who are covering up for S & P's long-term neglect like mad, instead of facing the problem with the membership and resolving it.
Assure the membership that Steve and Paul wouldn't remain Trustees if voted out of leadership positions, and the problem goes away.

So far, the straw poll shows that over half the voters want an online election, which Andy says can be private, free and fair on CPUK.
But it's democratic for a postal vote for those who can't/won't vote online.
You just determine who's voting online and who by post. The members who opt for postal votes don't get added to the CPUK member's voting area. Simple!

I can't see a ballot for full member voting at the AGM failing to be passed, can you?
If it did fail, there would be uproar from the absent majority of members, and rightly so!
IMHO, you could proceeed right now to the full-member elections, without the slightest fear of contradiction... !! :D

It is also - with great regret - that I must now add Phil Wilson to Steve and Paul as CPS leaders and Trustees who deserve to be voted out of leadership positions.
Phil is abusing the power of the offices he holds, wanting to tell the membership what to do instead of it telling him, proven mendacity and alleged libel on behalf of the Society, and a demonstrable wish to stifle rightful dissent and the truth.

I knew it would be difficult to lever out the seriously bad things in the CPS - for they are well entrenched over many years - but I had no idea it would come to this.

I have considerable faith in Tim, Dennis, Flick and Sheila... :yes:
And I've heard good things about Dianne's contributions.
Let's hope some more sunshine comes in soon, eh?


Vic

Edited by Vic2, 05 April 2011 - 10:55 AM.


#163 pwilson

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:28 PM

What on earth does that mean?


It's a hashing term Mobile. As in Hash House Harriers rather than drugs. Just my attempt to inject a bit of humour...

Phil

#164 pwilson

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:34 PM

What would be the purpose of opening another thread? The 'arguments' between you and Vic would just continue there... pointless.


Because this thread is being closed after Saturday and I'd quite like to keep the debate on ballots etc going after. As long as it keeps positive and constructive. And yes Vic will continue to post his nonsense. What would you do if he attacked you? Ignore him? I tried that and it doesn't stop him so I may as well respond, even if I'm aware that he's only trying to bait me.

Phil

#165 pwilson

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:42 PM

If you are referring to my comment...


... then you have misinterpreted the reason I made this comment. If you allow members to count the votes then you leave yourselves totally open to accussations of vote fixing by those who may have some 'grudge' towards the elected members. By having these votes counted by someone totally independant you avoid this.


That's an easy one to deal with. We keep the voting slips and make them available to anyone who wants to see them. As long as there are no personal details on the voting forms we can do this without contravening the data protection act. I suppose it doesn't get over the possible accusation that someone might be shredding a few votes that they don't want to see but I can't see a way round that unless we employ someone independant.

Phil

#166 ada

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:42 PM

Vic, I totally agree about what you say,the membership should tell the elected what to do.
But they are elected by the membership to do the best for the society as they see it at the time.They can't write or e-mail every body with every tiny little detail can they?

Phil has invited you to the AGM Personally as his guest.
If i was you and said what you have,i would be there come hell or high water,to defend what i had said and prove myself right in front of those who can be bothered to turn up for the AGM.If you feel so strongly about the CPS i'm sure your friends would understand your cancelling at the last minute.
All the issues you have raised could be sorted out then instead of simmering on for another year.

I don't have all the info you claim to have,but take Phils offer/challenge up and lets get this sorted and finished and move on.
ada.

#167 mobile

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:45 PM

Because this thread is being closed after Saturday and I'd quite like to keep the debate on ballots etc going after. As long as it keeps positive and constructive.

Sorry... I misinterpreted the reason for closing it. Yes, I agree that continuing a constructive debate would be of benefit.

What would you do if he attacked you? Ignore him?

Yes, as all the thread turns into is an argument between the two of you, in which no one will win and it detracts from the positives in the thread.

#168 mobile

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:54 PM

I suppose it doesn't get over the possible accusation that someone might be shredding a few votes that they don't want to see but I can't see a way round that unless we employ someone independant.

You could possibly try asking another independent society if they could assist in this... Rotary club, WI etc? I guess that this is where online voting is preferable, as then it is not necessary for 'anyone' to be involved in the counting.

#169 pwilson

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:54 PM

Thank heavens for Dennis Balsdon! :yes:
A voice of reason and consideration for members, to counter the (dare I say) undeniably Stalinist views of the CPS Secretary.
For a minute there, I was worried that Phil was speaking for all the Trustees and Committee. Phew... :sweat:

Vic,

I find the accusation that I am a Stalinist with Stalinist views completely and utterly offensive.

You've finally managed to get to me so well done. I quit this debate. Say what you like about me and the CPS. I no longer care.

Goodbye.

Phil

#170 mobile

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 16:58 PM

They can't write or e-mail every body with every tiny little detail can they?

No, but they could publish the informative ones on the website.

#171 mobile

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 17:03 PM

I find the accusation that I am a Stalinist with Stalinist views completely and utterly offensive.

You've finally managed to get to me so well done. I quit this debate. Say what you like about me and the CPS. I no longer care.

Goodbye.

Phil

Unfortunately, if all the committee members take this decision then there will be no one listening to the positive suggestions and views of members in the thread. So, no more mud slinging please, as it's of detriment to the majority.

#172 Vic2

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 17:19 PM

Vic, I totally agree about what you say,the membership should tell the elected what to do.
But they are elected by the membership to do the best for the society as they see it at the time.They can't write or e-mail every body with every tiny little detail can they?

Phil has invited you to the AGM Personally as his guest.
If i was you and said what you have,i would be there come hell or high water,to defend what i had said and prove myself right in front of those who can be bothered to turn up for the AGM.If you feel so strongly about the CPS i'm sure your friends would understand your cancelling at the last minute.
All the issues you have raised could be sorted out then instead of simmering on for another year.

I don't have all the info you claim to have,but take Phils offer/challenge up and lets get this sorted and finished and move on.
ada.

I'd like to, ada, believe me I would. :yes:
But I'm not letting down my friends and losing my deposit for this.

If the CPS wants to organise a showdown which I can attend, I'd gladly join in the debate!
It'd be interesting, taking apart the cover-up and revealing the leadership's persistent neglect and self-interest, in person in front of the membership :sweat:
PM me to arrange.

The truth is that I've already revealed about as much as I can about Steve and Paul's neglect without embarrassing other people. And I've reached a far wider section of the membership than would ever be possible at a physical AGM.

And, even if there's a leadership change, it won't affect me. I'm in permanent exile, unless I sign a forced confession that I was wrong, and I lied, when I wasn't and didn't - I've always told the truth. And I've proved it.

I've done my best for the CPS. But only the whole membership - including those good Committee members whose names shall be hallowed forevermore :yes: - can really replace Steve, Paul and Phil with something better.

I can continue to promote and facilitate free, fair and private elections for the whole CPS membership - and point out the leadership's excesses and untruths! - but then it has to be up to you, the members.

I really do hope the CPS improves for its members, as we've seen on this topic that it badly needs to.

Good luck,

Vic

#173 manders

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 17:28 PM

As an on and off member of the CPS going back 30 years but having never met either side, I have actually only a passing interest in this squabble, however;

We are all capable of re-joining or not as we see fit and don't need to be cajoled into doing either, by either side.

The fact that commitee members may make decisions without resorting to asking every member is not a surprise and is how democracy in reality actually works most of the time, we elect people to make decisions for us and kick them out when we don't like the result. If anybody is unhappy with the leadership then why not stand for election as we are all entitled to do, end of story.

Internet/postal elections - good idea, lets get it done.

Beyond that I fail to see what re-hashing these smoke and mirror accusations and counter accusations are actually achieving or even what they are trying to achieve, its certainly not in the best interest of the CPS, looks very much like rattles being thrown out of prams to the slightly bored and disinterested onlooker, and I dare say if I was chairman in a similar position I wouldn't lower myself by bothering to reply either, and no he's not a mate of mine, i've never met him.

Suffice it to say if there are any serious breaches of rules then they should be reported to the relevant authority with evidence, end of story, no need for a rehash.

Sadly, this subject is a bit like groundhog day but less interesting, if that's possible.

#174 Vic2

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 17:32 PM

Vic,
I find the accusation that I am a Stalinist with Stalinist views completely and utterly offensive.
You've finally managed to get to me so well done. I quit this debate. Say what you like about me and the CPS. I no longer care.
Goodbye.
Phil

I'm sorry you're leaving the debate, Phil.
And I didn't mean to cause you personal harm. :yes:
It's the attitude and behaviour - not you personally - at fault, IMHO.

Please read through your posts, and you'll hopefully see why I think that the description unfortunately fits, and rather too well for my liking.

I'm also sure you can change your leadership style to reflect the conscientious, decent man lurking underneath, as I know he does.
You weren't at all like this before you became a Trustee and CPS Secretary.

FWIW, I enjoyed your SOH on the Committee! :sweat: We had a few good laughs there, didn't we?

Sorry,

Vic

Edited by Vic2, 04 April 2011 - 17:36 PM.


#175 Phil Green

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 18:08 PM

I don't understand why committee members took offense to the suggestion of independent counting being required. I pointed out the reason many posts ago

Post does go astray and if the votes were being counted by the current committee, the result would be open to accusations of being 'biased' or tampered with.

Nothing about personal trust of them - just being above reproach. After all, MP's are 'trusted' to run the country - but imagine if they wanted to count their own votes :sweat:

As I see this thread, there are three main issues,

1) - it seems generally agreed that the CPS web site leaves much to be desired. It needs to be kept up to date AND as importantly, the CPS committee needs to actually use it to put important information on and so inform ITS MEMBERS - preferably as the FIRST place they put information, rather than the last - if anyone can be bothered and after people have complained that it isn't on there.

2) - voting for committee posts. I think it is already quite clear (feel free to disagree), that most members are voting for online voting, with (quite rightly) the option of postal voting for those who can't use the internet. This shows that the membership is fair and want an inclusive voting system, rather than just the few able to attend AGM's.

However, it has been made quite clear by the committee, that any voting will likely be irrelevant, as there would be no vote unless two people contested the same post. And I don't believe that most members have any issue what so ever, with MOST of the current committee.

Now Phil pointed out the consequence of 'voting out' certain committee members, but neatly avoided the posts of most concern Steve & Paul. But much earlier he said

Well with all due respect I think you're wrong Vic!
If you had any idea about how a committee works you would realise that committees can and do reach decisions every day without the input of the chairman. In fact the only special voting and decision making that a chairman has to make is that he or she has the casting vote in the event that the committee is unable to reach a majority vote. Certainly the chairman and (sic) vice-chairman have no authority to prevent the committee from taking a decision. The committee works as a democracy.

So it looks as though there would actually no consequence of 'deselecting them'.

Which seems to be the 3rd point.
3) - a vote of confidence in Steve and Paul. And their absence in this debate has been very obvious, even though there are several CPS members raising issues here, the CPS Chairman has said not one word.
Now despite the Vic / Phil W. issues, I don't think most (if any) members have any problems with Phils work, but if he wanted to, I'm sure he'd receive a full vote of confidence.

But again - no one seems to really be questioning Steve and Paul being Show organisers - it has already been said they do a good job. It is just the Chairman's post and 'apparent' vice Chairman.

And it does seem to me that CPS members are now calling for a vote of confidence.

#176 dennisB

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 18:15 PM

Hi Vic

I've been a committee now for 3 years. Neither Phil nor anyone else has been stalinist or has the power to be dictatorial. All, repeat, all, decisions made by the committee are arrived at by consensus. I know you will contest this Vic but it is true.

I don't know of any other non member who has been given the opportunity to come along and put their views to the AGM. If you can't make it Vic, surely you can find a member prepared to come along and put your views to the AGM.

For years now some of us have been responding to your attacks on the society and individual committee members. All it has acheived is to continue the attacks. Some of your proposals have had some merit. It is a pity that you didn't raise them when you were a committee member.

I've now had enough and will not respond again. Members can contact me direct to cpsmembers@blueyonder.co.uk. I usually respond withiin a couple of days.

No doubt Vic you will now add me to the list of committee members you disapprove of. It will be an honour. I look forward to joining the Vic-2 hate list sub group of the committee. We could even have club T-shirts made.

Best regards to the rest of you.

Dennis

#177 Flick

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 19:15 PM

Vic, I totally agree about what you say,the membership should tell the elected what to do.
But they are elected by the membership to do the best for the society as they see it at the time.They can't write or e-mail every body with every tiny little detail can they?

Phil has invited you to the AGM Personally as his guest.
If i was you and said what you have,i would be there come hell or high water,to defend what i had said and prove myself right in front of those who can be bothered to turn up for the AGM.If you feel so strongly about the CPS i'm sure your friends would understand your cancelling at the last minute.
All the issues you have raised could be sorted out then instead of simmering on for another year.

I don't have all the info you claim to have,but take Phils offer/challenge up and lets get this sorted and finished and move on.
ada.


Thanks to you ada for talking sense and being impartial.

Flick

#178 mobile

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 19:19 PM

I've now had enough and will not respond again. Members can contact me direct to cpsmembers@blueyonder.co.uk. I usually respond withiin a couple of days.

Dennis and other committee members, I would like to ask you to not abandon this thread. There are many suggestions being made by a number of CPS members and I fear that they will not be so keen on sending emails. Plus it is always best to 'bounce' ideas around several people, which the main purpose of a forum. Please don't let one person de-rail the whole process of debate for the rest of us.

#179 Flick

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 19:41 PM

Dennis and other committee members, I would like to ask you to not abandon this thread. There are many suggestions being made by a number of CPS members and I fear that they will not be so keen on sending emails. Plus it is always best to 'bounce' ideas around several people, which the main purpose of a forum. Please don't let one person de-rail the whole process of debate for the rest of us.


Thanks. As a part of those being 'attacked' by the few, it is very hard to stay here and stay positive. I have been on the committee since 2001 ish and I have personally been on the receiving end of Vic's poison since he joined and left us. Not just what you have all seen here, but at home. The committee (me included) have tried to stay positive and professional and only critiscised when we can stand it no longer. No-one but us knows exactly what has gone on. We are damned if we answer and damned if we don't.

I joined the committee and became a Trustee because I care. I still care, but I am getting tired with all this. I certainly hope to see those that have critiscised the most volunteer to be on the committee. They need not stand for a specific role if they feel they have no special skills - general committee member will do just fine and they will be very welcome.

If the committee (whoever stands and is elected by whatever means is decided) are approved by the membership - can this stop please - once and for all?

Flick
Still present Treasurer, CPS

#180 mobile

 
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Posted 04 April 2011 - 19:57 PM

Well, let me be one who says thank you to you and the other members of the committee who have taken the time to read and respond to this thread. Sure, I have criticised some things myself but I have tried to balance this with suggestions and have also offered assistance, should it be wanted. I do not feel that I can offer enough time to be provide the commitment required to be a committee member, as I am the type of person who likes to do things with full commitment or not at all. However, this does not mean that I can't help in other ways.

We need the committee members in this thread to listen to members suggestions and drive changes through. Without this we will be back to 'square one', which would be a great shame.

:sweat: