Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

need help identifying cause of death


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 naryn

 
naryn
  • Members
  • 68 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kingston, Surrey, UK
  • Interests:CPs, Gemstones, Snowboarding, Motorbikes, Anime.
 

Posted 20 November 2010 - 15:50 PM

Hi guys,

In the last couple of days one of my heli just shrivelled up. Nothing has changed, it hadnt even been moved. Here's a couple of pictures. All the leaves have dried up. There are a couple of new leaf tips in the centre so it may not be a gonner yet but i dont know why this has happened. Another pot, a division of the same plant, is doing fine next to it...

Posted Image
Posted Image

Andy

Edited by naryn, 20 November 2010 - 15:51 PM.


#2 mantrid

 
mantrid
  • Full Members
  • 1,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Wales
  • Interests:Sculpting in Bronze. Please visit realbronzes.com and see some of my work
 

Posted 20 November 2010 - 17:54 PM

I would suspect the roots have rotted

#3 Vic2

 
Vic2
  • Full Members
  • 585 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Letchworth Garden City
 

Posted 20 November 2010 - 23:44 PM

Given that a clone next to it is doing well, it could be a pest, or (less likely) a disease.
Something attacking the roots, like a leatherjacket, or sawfly larvae?

I'd isolate the affected plant asap, and burn it if it dies, as a precaution.

If you want to inspect the compost and dissect it to determine cause of death, do it well away from your healthy plants!

Vic

Edited by Vic2, 20 November 2010 - 23:46 PM.


#4 Gubbtjuven

 
Gubbtjuven
  • Full Members
  • 67 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sweden
 

Posted 22 November 2010 - 16:44 PM

I'v had helis behave like that when they were grown in hot and humid conditions. I think they get weak i those conditions, and are more likely infected by fungi.
Try place it in a cool place with pretty good light.

#5 chimanta

 
chimanta
  • Full Members
  • 79 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dulliken, SWITZERLAND
 

Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:51 PM

It looks like the typical Heliamphora sickness - root fungus. I lost myself some nice and rare plants like this. Andreas Fleischmann from Germanny has written in the German forum about this.

Usually my infected plants died within 2 days from the time I saw anything is wrong with them - always to late to react. I only had this problem with keeping the plants indoor and didn't have enough temp differences during the nigth and keeping them to wet. Other plants indoor not kept to wet weren't infected. However, a friend of mine had this problem also outside in the greenhouse.

I never had this problem outsinde in my greenhouse with temp changes from 10 or more degrees (day and nigth) even thoug they had temps somethimes above 30 celsius in summertime and where standing in approx 3 cm of water.

It's important, that the plant ist not kept to warm otherwise the fungus will become lethal. Try to given them a temp. difference between day and nigth.

Good growing

Urs

Visit My Website

Edited by chimanta, 23 November 2010 - 12:54 PM.


#6 Miroslav Srba

 
Miroslav Srba
  • Full Members
  • 58 posts
  • Location:Czech Republic
  • Interests:Sarraceniaceae, genetics, entomology, molecular biology
 

Posted 02 March 2011 - 08:01 AM

Chimanta, can I ask you for giving a link to german forum in here.

I have lost about 70% of heliamphoras during this winter because of this disease. I am afraid I have bought this "treasure" in Leiden togother with three new plants. I have lost about 80-90 plants in total incl. 40cm large plants with flowers. I have never seen souch trouble during 15 year experience with helis. F...

Thank you anyway.

#7 Amar

 
Amar
  • Full Members
  • 2,233 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Basel, Switzerland
  • Interests:single malt whisky, irish/scottish music, tin whistles, low whistles, and yes, carnivorous plants.
 

Posted 02 March 2011 - 08:24 AM

Chimanta, can I ask you for giving a link to german forum in here.

I have lost about 70% of heliamphoras during this winter because of this disease. I am afraid I have bought this "treasure" in Leiden togother with three new plants. I have lost about 80-90 plants in total incl. 40cm large plants with flowers. I have never seen souch trouble during 15 year experience with helis. F...

Thank you anyway.

Here's the link to the German forum: http://forum.carnivoren.org/

#8 An D Smith

 
An D Smith
  • Full Members
  • 427 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bournemouth. UK
  • Interests:Horticulture, fossils, archaeology, entomology, neolithic stone tools etc
 

Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:27 AM

I too, as well as many others here in the UK have lost hundreds of plants over the last 2 years to this same disease. I too bought an infected plant at the EEE (I shan't name any names!!) and this proceeded to infect my entire collection.

I have lost all the seedlings I raised from my wild collections as well as mature plants, many years old.

A bit worrying, I sometimes feel that maybe Heliamphora cultivation will soon be a thing of the past. Andreas's observations of this disease being temperature critical doesn't seem to be the way with my plants. My greenhouse has been heated to just 8 Centigrade all winter and still the plants die. I hope global warming doesn't threaten the genus in the wild in this way, as they have nowhere else to go.


Yours miserably

Andy

#9 dchasselblad74

 
dchasselblad74
  • Full Members
  • 1,300 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, IL USA
  • Interests:Guitars, Photography, Mountain Biking, Kendo, Rifle Shooting, Maori Bone Carving, Biology, Ecology, Aquariums, Orchids, Sarracenias, Nepenthes, Heliamphoras, Albany Pitchers, Sundews, Pings, Utrics.....
 

Posted 02 March 2011 - 14:51 PM

I had similar experience with my Heliamphora Tequila..and I thought it was completely deadbut when I put it in a baggie, it sprouted a new leaf, I was

so happy it was still alive..Here's a photo


http://i1187.photobu.../untitled-3.jpg

#10 Phil Green

 
Phil Green
  • Full Members
  • 1,837 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent
 

Posted 02 March 2011 - 17:23 PM

I had similar experience with my Heliamphora Tequila

Thankfully for you, your problem was something totally different. Your pic clearly shows a live base to one of the dead pitchers - so the roots were still alive, which is why it grew a new plant.

This fungal infection first kills of the roots, before slowly spreading UP the plant - the tops of the pitchers are the last thing to die, not the first.
This is why it is such a nasty infection - by the time there is any visible sign of a problem, it is already too late.

Andy - sorry to hear you lost all those seedlings :moderator: I guess I'm lucky to still have two alive.
The few plants I've lost to this, have also been just after hot weather or after having moved them. I suspect that this infection is something that the plants can have without any problem - until something triggers it, maybe stress related. I now this can happen with other things.

'touch wood' - since keeping them in doors under 'more or less' stable conditions and away from extreemes, I haven't lost any to it (well over a year).

#11 Amar

 
Amar
  • Full Members
  • 2,233 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Basel, Switzerland
  • Interests:single malt whisky, irish/scottish music, tin whistles, low whistles, and yes, carnivorous plants.
 

Posted 02 March 2011 - 17:36 PM

This fungal infection first kills of the roots, before slowly spreading UP the plant - the tops of the pitchers are the last thing to die, not the first.
This is why it is such a nasty infection - by the time there is any visible sign of a problem, it is already too late.


Sounds like the same kind of fungus responsible for SCDS (sudden cephalotus death syndrome), verticillium fungal wilt.

#12 will9

 
will9
  • Full Members
  • 757 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgie
  • Interests:cactussen, succulenten, gardenplants, carnivores - all plants
 

Posted 02 March 2011 - 23:39 PM

Can this virus or fungus infect also Mexican pings?I buy last year in Leiden two plants(meaby from the same guy) ,she looking healty,a month later one of the plants schrived up and was dead in one night,the day before plant was ready to flower ,next day dead,two days later the second plant died on the same way.Since then i lost a lot of pings,all on the same way,looking very good ,a day later dead whitout any warning ,it s not brown heart disease.Plants looks like she are overwatering or are frozen,the leafs looks watering and soft ,plants standing not wet,the last two weeks i have no plants dead anymore but i have not watering since begin of winter,so plants are very dry!
You can also notting safe from this ,when you see it plants is totally lost!
Setting vents or warm up to 10° notting helpt,meaby this is becausse high humidity ,4 months not below 100% humidity this winter,but the first plants died on this way when it s where still very good weather and whit plenty fresh air.Last winter and summer i lost not one plant from these,
Cheers Will

Edited by will9, 03 March 2011 - 08:49 AM.


#13 RL7836

 
RL7836
  • Full Members
  • 520 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central NJ, USA
 

Posted 03 March 2011 - 00:47 AM

Has anyone had their collections infected with this disease after they've been using Trichoderma for a few months?

Edited by RL7836, 03 March 2011 - 00:48 AM.


#14 kribbio

 
kribbio
  • Full Members
  • 4 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milano, Italy
 

Posted 27 March 2011 - 16:54 PM

Hi to all.

I had recently the same problem with my H. neblinae. it was very big (43 centimeters tall pitcers) and with H. tatei ( the same size, more or less).
I found that all the plant was starting to dry out. But knowing the problem (it occourred to one plant some year ago) I'm succeded in saving some part of both the plants.
These plants were big (with a stem, expecially H.tatei) and I had enougth "plants" to cut away the rooting part of them and (the part of the rhizome with roots, I cut the stem looking for the live tissue) and I kept some piece of these plants in sphagnum moss...some of the cuttings died, but some staied alive for many time, untill one cutting of H. tatei succeded in rooting...with 3 beautiful and fat white roots....I'm so happy, I've not lost the whole plants.
So, I can say: it is a fungus (I think something as Pythium or Fusarium). this appened after I used trichoderma. It occourred in december, so the period when I have cool temperatures...It seems to be non related with high temperatures...and it occourred after I repotted H. neblinae and after I brought the H. tatei to an exposition...so both had a stress.
I succeded in saving a part of them only because the plants were big ( both flowered 2 or 3 time). Whith smallest plants there would not be anything to do.
I think this is a fungus normally present in the coltural mix. It coexist with the plant, without any trouble. but when the plant is stressed for some reason, it takes over.
I think trichoderma it will help. but it is not the total solution to this problem.
I think my mistake was also keeping plants too wet ( however always without standing water). with big pots it occours also the problem that there is more standing water on the bottom ot the substrate, because of fisical reason (if you use a wet sponge you'll know exactly what I'm sayng). So I recently started using large pieces of polystyrene. I put them into the pot before starting to fill it with the substrate, in order to have a very high drainage. Plants seem to like it. Roots tend to stick to polystyrene. I think they like it!
Excuse me for my imperfect english, but I just wanted to write you my experience with this problem. I think it's mainly caused by too wet conditions.
I think these problems are more frequent in winter or in indoor, because of a lack of sun means a lack of uv radiation, that are the most efficient antidotes against fungi and molds. So winter has better temperatures than summer (an high temperature can also cause this problem, surely) but in summer the stronger uv radiation fights against it.
instead, in case of indoor, the worst period should be just the summer, because of higher temperatures and the lack of direct sun (in this case plants never grow on direct sun, so they have no advantages of uv radiation) and the best period for their groth is in winter, with can allow lower temperatures.

Edited by kribbio, 27 March 2011 - 16:55 PM.


#15 mobile

 
mobile
  • Global Moderator
  • 4,373 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
  • Interests:Carnivorous plants & hydroculture.
 

Posted 27 March 2011 - 19:33 PM

Has anyone had their collections infected with this disease after they've been using Trichoderma for a few months?

Whilst I use Trichoderma, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that it offers any protection to carnivorous plants.

#16 RL7836

 
RL7836
  • Full Members
  • 520 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central NJ, USA
 

Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:33 PM

Whilst I use Trichoderma, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that it offers any protection to carnivorous plants.

Your statement contains two interesting & significant parts (imho):

- "conclusive evidence" - Av has shared scientific papers (peer-reviewed) that have shown positive results with a variety of species (but not CP).
- "to carnivorous plants" - this is why I asked the question. The stories of people having some form of destruction happen with their Cephalotus, Heliamphora or Sarracenia are quite common. Herr Fleischmann has even shared a cause in the case of some Heliamphora, Forbes shared one for Sarracenia on the ICPS forum and Jonathon (via bill/flycatchers) for Cephalotus in this thread. What isn't common is people sharing one of these stories after having used Trichoderma treatment for some time (kribbio may not be the 1st but he is within a very small group from what I have seen).

I suspect that "conclusive evidence" for "carnivorous plants" may be almost impossible to provide given that this type of robust research is normally only done on crop plants and thus we may be waiting for a long time....

I agree with your original statement and endeavor to continue to monitor the facts as I find them. However, since Trichoderma is relatively inexpensive and fairly easy to apply on a regular basis, the risk vs reward justification for its use seems to be fairly obvious at this point in time (again imho). Given Bill's haunting comment (flycatchers 2nd post), it would seem that the absence of disease for a long period doesn't imply that one is safe....

#17 mobile

 
mobile
  • Global Moderator
  • 4,373 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
  • Interests:Carnivorous plants & hydroculture.
 

Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:51 PM

However, since Trichoderma is relatively inexpensive and fairly easy to apply on a regular basis, the risk vs reward justification for its use seems to be fairly obvious at this point in time (again imho).

Unfortunately, that's not true of the UK, where it is £1(GBP)/gram ~ $1.60(USD)/0.035oz. This probably puts more people off trying something for which there is little evidence of effectivity in CP species.

#18 av8tor1

 
av8tor1
  • Full Members
  • 36 posts
  • Location:USA
 

Posted 29 March 2011 - 14:31 PM

I don't really understand the cp or not cp argument with Trichoderma. Photomicrography (from several major academic sources) has shown it coiling around the phytopathogen, attacking and degrading the cell walls. Since the Trichoderma is attacking the phytopathogen directly, this beneficial action would seem to be irrelevant of the plant being a cp or not.

Now Trichoderma does benefit the plant in other ways, and these additional benefits may or may not qualify to the cp/non cp debate....

But in any case.... FWIW I no longer have issues with this disease and I have some experience with Helis

peer reviewed research
Peer reviewed research
(just two of many papers on the subject)

For me, its hard to deny the photographic evidence and overwhelming peer reviewed research that is backed up with my own personal experience...
Of course your milage may vary, and there are indeed many strains of trich, some more effective then others for any given application.

HTH's
Av

Edited by av8tor1, 29 March 2011 - 16:34 PM.


#19 manders

 
manders
  • Full Members
  • 2,840 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cheshire
  • Interests:Neps
 

Posted 29 March 2011 - 16:57 PM

Has anyone tried a test to see if clay pots work better than plastic pots, the roots should be several degrees cooler, would that help prevent deaths by this fungus?

#20 mobile

 
mobile
  • Global Moderator
  • 4,373 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
  • Interests:Carnivorous plants & hydroculture.
 

Posted 29 March 2011 - 18:34 PM

Hi Av,

Good to see you on here. Thank you for the useful information. I have a few questions and comments:

I don't really understand the cp or not cp argument with Trichoderma. Photomicrography (from several major academic sources) has shown it coiling around the phytopathogen, attacking and degrading the cell walls. Since the Trichoderma is attacking the phytopathogen directly, this beneficial action would seem to be irrelevant of the plant being a cp or not.

Were these studies carried out on plants growing in acidic, semi-anaerobic, wet substrate - which is atypical of how many people grow CPs?

But in any case.... FWIW I no longer have issues with this disease and I have some experience with Helis

I have not had athletes foot since I started drinking fresh ground coffee :man_in_love: To be of any scientific relevance this would have to be a study involving a large number of plants, growing in identical conditions with a control. In addition, Daniele says that this happened after apply Trichoderma. I have similar issues with those who claim that coffee has amazing results on Nepenthes but have never tried feeding them with any other suitable nitrogen source, but I digress.

Of course your milage may vary, and there are indeed many strains of trich, some more effective then others for any given application.

There could be some significance in this. Some strains might be more resilient to certain soil conditions than others. Here in Europe, Canna are a major supplier of Trichoderma and I believe that it contains the harzianum strain.

Edited by mobile, 29 March 2011 - 19:11 PM.