30 replies to this topic

[prized]

Hi all, I was reading about CITES end export/import permits, and find out something quite strange! (maybe I wasn't aware of that)

As you can see here, Sarracenia spp. and Dionaea muscipula are both on Appendix II, but note the small number #4 and if you go down the page -> http://www.cites.org...dices.php#hash4 you find some rule to be applied to that plants.....

Well, it says that "Artificially propagated" plants can be eventually sent everywhere.


If you take a look here -> http://www.cites.org...dices.php#hash4 it explains how "Artificially propagated" should be interpreted:

Quote

DETERMINES that the term ‘artificially propagated’ shall be interpreted to refer to plant specimens:

a)    grown under controlled conditions; and

b)    grown from seeds, cuttings, divisions, callus tissues or other plant tissues, spores or other propagules that either are exempt from the provisions of the Convention or have been derived from cultivated parental stock;

DETERMINES that plants grown from cuttings or divisions are considered to be artificially propagated only if the traded specimens do not contain any material collected from the wild;

So, readying this things, I understand that plants on Appendix II Except the species included in Appendix I can be sent EVERYWHERE without CITES permits!!! I guess that it would be enough to write few lines on a paper saying that the plant is Artificially propagated or Grown from seed or propagated from a seedgrown plant or something like this!!

What do you think about it??

Edited by prized, 20 February 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[Amar]

This is a highly interesting find....I do wonder what the others think about this...but I can't really find any reason why you shouldn't be right..!

[Alexis]

It means plants grown under controlled conditions (ie. in tissue culture flasks) AND that these cultivated plants have been derived from seeds / cuttings / divisions etc.

Your interpretation would only work if the word after 'controlled conditions' was 'or', not 'and'.

That's my interpretation.

[prized]

Alexis, on 20 February 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

It means plants grown under controlled conditions (ie. in tissue culture flasks) AND that these cultivated plants have been derived from seeds / cuttings / divisions etc.

Your interpretation would only work if the word after 'controlled conditions' was 'or', not 'and'.

That's my interpretation.

If you read the point "a)" it is not even mentioned the terms "tissue culture flasks"...
"Controlled conditions" means every non-natural environment, such as our greenhouse for example, where we intervene manually!

Quote

a)    ‘under controlled conditions’ means in a non-natural environment that is intensively manipulated by human intervention for the purpose of plant production. General characteristics of controlled conditions may include but are not limited to tillage, fertilization, weed and pest control, irrigation, or nursery operations such as potting, bedding or protection from weather;

That makes me think a lot!

[Alexis]

By that reasoning you could dig up a wild plant, grow it in a greenhouse for 24 hours and then send it anywhere in the world. What would be the point of CITES if that was possible?
At the end of the day, sending without the full set of paperwork will just mean the plant gets incinerated at customs.

[manders]

#4 says plants exported must be produced in-invitro, this overrides 'artifical propagation'.

Its is actually more strict than that and can be applied more stringently, the same #4 rule applies to Nepenthes.  Many years ago i imported N aptera (N rigidifolia) and this caused enormous problems and i believe was one reason why MT no longer export many species.  DEFRA insisted that the parent plants (as well as the offspring i was importing) had to be proven to be in-vito artificially propagated and not wild plants!

[prized]

There are other laws ruling the poaching of wild plants! CITES are not meant to do this.
According to this, the "needed paperwork" should only consist in few lines describing the origin of the plant, and its propagation!

Obviously rules for poaching, and also CITES for exportation, cannot be applied to EU growers (regarding to VFTs and Sarracenia) as there are not endemic Sarra or Dionaea in EU, so every Sarracenia or Dionaea is a artificially propagated plant!!

Quote

By that reasoning you could dig up a wild plant, grow it in a greenhouse for 24 hours and then send it anywhere in the world. What would be the point of CITES if that was possible?

Yes, if nobody finds you while poaching, that could eventually be a possibility! (eventhough it is highly forbidden here and on every CPs forum)
CITES will surely ask more information when exporting (endemic plants) from US to EU, but that's not the same for the contrary I guess.

[prized]

manders, on 20 February 2012 - 19:23 PM, said:

#4 says plants exported must be produced in-invitro, this overrides 'artifical propagation'.

Its is actually more strict than that and can be applied more stringently, the same #4 rule applies to Nepenthes.  Many years ago i imported N aptera (N rigidifolia) and this caused enormous problems and i believe was one reason why MT no longer export many species.  DEFRA insisted that the parent plants (as well as the offspring i was importing) had to be proven to be in-vito artificially propagated and not wild plants!

Sure, but if I send a Dionaea outside the EU, who would be so "ignorant" to ask me if I dig it up in the wild????

[manders]

prized, on 20 February 2012 - 19:30 PM, said:

There are other laws ruling the poaching of wild plants! CITES are not meant to do this.
According to this, the "needed paperwork" should only consist in few lines describing the origin of the plant, and its propagation!

Obviously rules for poaching, and also CITES for exportation, cannot be applied to EU growers (regarding to VFTs and Sarracenia) as there are not endemic Sarra or Dionaea in EU, so every Sarracenia or Dionaea is a artificially propagated plant!!




Yes, if nobody finds you while poaching, that could eventually be a possibility! (eventhough it is highly forbidden here and on every CPs forum)
CITES will surely ask more information when exporting (endemic plants) from US to EU, but that's not the same for the contrary I guess.

Plants for export have to be produced in-vitro, the only way around this is to send seeds.  It applies in all directions.

[manders]

prized, on 20 February 2012 - 19:32 PM, said:

Sure, but if I send a Dionaea outside the EU, who would be so "ignorant" to ask me if I dig it up in the wild????

Plants must be produced in-vitro, thats the rules, like it or not.

[prized]

manders, on 20 February 2012 - 20:03 PM, said:

Plants must be produced in-vitro, thats the rules, like it or not.

In-vitro production is not mentioned on CITES website.

[Alexis]

I'm no expert. Hopefully some more knowledgeable people will dive in.

[prized]

Alexis, on 20 February 2012 - 20:45 PM, said:

I'm no expert. Hopefully some more knowledgeable people will dive in.

I really hope so! I'll try to write a mail to the Italian "Corpo Forestale" and the international CITES org.
Hope to let you know soon!

[manders]

Ive been importing orchids and nepenthes on and off for over ten years and have dealt with DEFRA and CITES on numerous occasions, the only time you dont need cites documentation with neps,sarras,vft's is if you produce them by invitro methods and send them in sterile containers.  There is no room for misunderstanding the rules are clear and apply to re-export just as they do for original country of origin export.  (many nurseries are in 'third party' countries and still require cites).

All you have to do is read this, its clear...

All parts and derivatives, except:
a) seeds (including seedpods of Orchidaceae), spores and pollen (including pollinia). The exemption does not apply to seeds from Cactaceae spp. exported from Mexico, and to seeds from Beccariophoenix madagascariensis and Neodypsis decaryi exported from Madagascar;
b) seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers;
c) cut flowers of artificially propagated plants;
d) fruits, and parts and derivatives thereof, of naturalized or artificially propagated plants of the genus Vanilla (Orchidaceae) and of the family Cactaceae;
e) stems, flowers, and parts and derivatives thereof, of naturalized or artificially propagated plants of the genera Opuntia subgenus Opuntia and Selenicereus (Cactaceae); and
f) finished products of Euphorbia antisyphilitica packaged and ready for retail trade.

[Amar]

Hmm, guess Manders is right...read closely, it does not say that all  "artificially propagated" plants can be sent everywhere.



#4     All parts and derivatives, except:
...
b) seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media,        transported in sterile containers;
c) cut flowers of artificially propagated plants;
d) ..............artificially propagated plants of the genus Vanilla..........
e) ..............or artificially     propagated plants of the genera Opuntia.........

[Amar]

Perhaps, just perhaps you read OR instead of OF here:

c) cut flowers OF artificially propagated plants;

That would explain the confusion, it explains mine anyway (we see what we want to see...)

Edited by Amar, 20 February 2012 - 23:05 PM.

[prized]

Amar, on 20 February 2012 - 23:03 PM, said:

Perhaps, just perhaps you read OR instead of OF here:

c) cut flowers OF artificially propagated plants;

That would explain the confusion, it explains mine anyway (we see what we want to see...)

Ehehehehhe I think you're right!!  
I'm sorry for the confusion!!

But at this point I have a natural question: what does it changes between a "cut flower of" and an artificially propagated plant?

[Amar]

Sorry Yuri, I don't quite understand.
Are you asking what is the difference between a cut flower of an artificially propagated plant and a cut flower of a wild-collected plant?

[prized]

Amar, on 20 February 2012 - 23:16 PM, said:

Sorry Yuri, I don't quite understand.
Are you asking what is the difference between a cut flower of an artificially propagated plant and a cut flower of a wild-collected plant?

No, I'm asking what is the difference between a cut flower of an artificially propagated and an artificially propagated. Why does the first one can be exported/imported withouth permits while the second one can't?

[Amar]

Sorry, it's late, still a bit confused.
If you are asking why sending flowers of artificially propagated plants is permitted and on the other hand sending flowers of wild plants is not, then I guess it is because: If you cut off the gonads of the wild growing plants, then they cannot propagate in the wild anymore.

Edited by Amar, 20 February 2012 - 23:26 PM.