Greg Allan

Response to the Brexit-related idiocy on the thread about peat

23 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

‘who's ranting moronic political views now?

It was the little people who fought wars in the past,our grandparents and their friends,who's guts and bravery made this country what it was.’

Of course many of our forebears demonstrated astonishing courage (and no short amount of ability) in previous wars- I’m not aware that any participant in this discussion has doubted this, nor given even the slightest hint of ingratitude for their sacrifices. I am, however, at a loss as to how you think that having had a grandparent who fought in one of the world wars is somehow a substitute for knowledge and expertise in respect of modern political, legal and economic matters.

It is also rather simplistic to imply that it was solely the courage and general efforts of the ‘little people’ (your words, initially, not mine) that shaped modern Britain. Of course, they played a part, but, to be honest, the privileged economic, medical, military and democratic status of the UK in recent history is also, to a great degree, a result of a combination of factors such as a historically sound constitutional framework with an independent judiciary and checks and balances on executive powers, the ideas propagated by generations of brilliant thinkers, the fruits of the work of numerous exceptional scientists and industrialists and also, shamefully, the products of colonial exploitation and the transatlantic slave trade.

‘It is the greed and easy life these peoople that rise to political elite crave.’

That’s certainly true of some of them (and always has been and always will be), but it is rather a gross generalisation!

‘It is well documented the corruptness of EU officals.’

Yes, some corruption has been documented. It is also often argued (with some justification) that many EU officials may be overpaid. I don’t think that many people think that the EU is perfect, or that it ought not to be reformed. It is worth bearing in mind that corruption has also, on occasion, been exposed within UK politics (an obvious example being the fairly recent expenses scandal). Also, it should be noted that virtually all EU countries fare very well indeed in the Corruption Perceptions Index. In short, most of the evidence suggests that the EU is among of the least corrupt of world institutions.

'We need to step back from being goverened by germany and france,'

It is precisely this sort of unfounded banality that is inflicting great damage to this country. Do you care to explain how on earth you think that membership of the EU leads to being ‘goverened [sic] by France and Germany’? As powerful member states, they do of course, possess some political clout (Germany more than France, for economic reasons), but in no way does this amount to governance! Do you have any comprehension of the roles played by the respective EU institutions in the Union’s law-making process? I’m sorry, but this really is a ridiculous statement.

‘keep our money at home and sort our country out,for people that live and work here.’

It is worth noting that many of the socially deprived areas which were strongly in favour of Brexit are net beneficiaries of EU funds. Unfortunately, these communities stand to suffer the greatest damage from Brexit. Certainly, a right wing populist UK government won’t help them or provide the infrastructure and resources necessary for them to help themselves. Of course, assuming one accepts the consensus amongst economists and leading industrialists, we all benefit greatly from EU membership in economic terms. Therefore, leaving is likely to greatly reduce the funds which are available to ‘sort our country out’. It is also notable that the EU has done a huge amount for ‘little people’, particularly, of course, in respect of employee and consumer rights.

‘when that is done we can start to look further afield at what we can do to help others,we need to help our own first.’

As I said, membership of the EU provides financial benefits to all; exit from the EU will inflict the greatest hardship upon the most needy.

‘the world is a bigger place then europe and there are far more oppertunities out there than just europe.’

But surely it is better to negotiate as part of an economically powerful bloc than alone (and from scratch, and with virtually no officials with any experience in negotiating trade deals)? The truth, as much as it may be difficult for some to stomach, is that there is no surer way to spurn the most favourable trading opportunities than to opt for a hard Brexit. Also, being as you’re so concerned about corruption, which countries that are less corrupt than the EU would you wish to be the UK’s partners in its new and glorious era of trade agreements?

‘get over losing a vote and get on with helping put our country right before everyone else’

I would not characterize it as a vote that I lost, rather as a vote that our country (especially our children and grandchildren) lost. You also have a peculiar view of the nature of democracy if you think that debate should cease upon the outcome of a vote. Moreover, a general election is about to be fought over… you guessed it, Brexit and its terms! The best way to help the country is to support, if not a reversal of the referendum, then as ‘soft’ a Brexit as possible!

People and countries will still trade with us or we can go elsewhere,they can't afford to lose our custom.

Yes, they are currently falling over themselves! The problem is that, essentially, we will need their custom more then they (in general, although it depends who ‘they’ are) need ours. Such inequality of bargaining power does not auger well for us!

ada

‘One thing i will say about the 'EU', is it is essentially corrupt, undemocratic and heading more in that direction.’  

As I mentioned above, the charges of corruption are overblown. As for the assertion that it is undemocratic, do you care to substantiate this claim? The law-making powers lie within the competence of the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers. Perhaps the Commission’s power ought to be reduced somewhat, but it is simply inaccurate to say that the EU is undemocratic. Also, according to the Lisbon Treaty, the European Parliament's powers were increased, so it is absurd to suggest that the EU is becoming less democratic.

‘If you only consider economics, i would have preferred to stay in.’

You are a few steps ahead of Ada

‘if you consider corruption and lack of democracy, i would have preferred to exit. Nobody really knows if staying in or leaving was economically the right thing to do.’

I think that a few experts have a good idea as to whether it was economically the right thing to do…

 ‘Experts are just over-educated idiots with an opinion most of the time.’  

This is impressive satire. Have you considered applying for a position as a journalist for Private Eye? On the off chance that this astonishing statement was made in earnest, not, why don’t you try the following:

trust the methods of Icarus, rather than those of modern aviation experts, next time you wish to take to the air;

resort to medieval quackery next time you get smallpox… actually, no need, because it was eradicated by experts;

represent yourself in court should you happen to be accused of a serious offence;

follow garden centre guidelines next time you acquire some nice new Nepenthes.

‘Even more so when you are dealing with economics.’

OK- if you are lucky enough to acquire a substantial inheritance, I trust that, should you wish to make an investment, you will seek advice from your mates in the pub rather than from anyone who has any clue about the financial sector.

I do think its time we stopped moaning about it and just got on with it.

Good grief! It’s the main issue in the forthcoming general election! The debate is not about to go away!

Edited by Greg Allan
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The EU is undemocratic and corrupt, they used to pay may salary, as an expert, and i know more about it than you do.  They make sebb blata look innocent and fifa a bastion of righteousness.

As i said earlier for economic reasons i would prefer to stay in Europe, but there is no certainty that economically that is the correct thing to do do, Europe has a lot of economic problems, italy is corrupt beyond belief and will likely follow Greece's economic path to oblivion.  Economics is not a hard science and economists are very frequently wrong.  Many were wrong in predicting disaster directly after voting to leave for example, and, they admitted they were wrong.

Greg, we get it that your a legal guy who will argue legal niceties until the the cows come home and force us all to drop dead through lack of a will to live from listening to your rambles.  Thats legal folks gift to the world and death to many a business.

If i got a very large inheritence i would not trust any 'advisor' because they are only in it for their own benefit.  Caveat emptor old boy.

I can only assume you have some personal benefit from remaining in the EU.

Acuially no, the main issue for the forthcoming election is giving the tories a bigger majority, getting rid of that idiot Corbin, and facing the EU with a strong government.  Like it or not, we are leaving and need to get the best deal possible when we do.

Greg, don't confuse qualifications with IQ or EQ.  Theres is many a union leader that will run rings around the best brains at the top of any company.  People get to be 'experts' by pedigree, not neccesarily, by ability.

I think there are extremely valid reasons to vote to leave, but i also think many people voted to leave for very poor or frankly stupid reasons and that is the root of the problem, curtesy of Farage and co.

Had people believed the real facts, i dont think we would be leaving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by manders
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good bye Labour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Deltatango301 said:

Good bye Labour

And what a terrible thing it is too. No matter who you support or vote for, parliment needs a strong opposition to hold the governing party to account, to counter their more extreme views. If the country allows the opposition parties to be effectively washed away in this election then they might aswell be writing a blank cheque for may &co to do what they like. Whilst this has arisen from that referendum, that isn't the only issue.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Labour will quickly need to change there in house voting

system or they will end up again with a loser leader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

May shot herself in the foot and Didn't JC do well need to eat my hat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Deltatango301 said:

May shot herself in the foot and Didn't JC do well need to eat my hat

Seems like neither of them are electable at this point.  Cant believe there is nobody in parliament that isnt either incompetent or a lefty loony weirdo.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd just like to remind people that this is a forum about carnivorous plants.

It is not the place for political rants nor is it acceptable to insult those with different political views to your own.

Dennis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then please remove the 'talk about anything' part of the forum Dennis.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is meant to be used to talk about CP related matters not covered by other forums - we won't be removing it.

Dennis

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dennisB said:

It is meant to be used to talk about CP related matters not covered by other forums - we won't be removing it.

Dennis

 

That'll be the 'General Carnivorous Plant Discussion' section, which says: "Post anything CP related here that doesn't fit elsewhere."

This section, as rightly pointed out by @manders is to talk about anything (as seen by the range of non-cp topics that have populated the section over the years.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think we should be able to have our say and discuss anything we want to,you don't have to read it or reply.

Moderators can step in and calm things down if need be,we are all or mostly adults and have views that vary,discussion is good,it helps us understand other people.

It can even lead to new friendships,we don't need a big brother type of forum.

ada

 

 

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, this section is described as the 'General chit-chat area'.

Someone always wants to talk politics in any forum though - with the inevitable disagreements!

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Alexis said:

Yep, this section is described as the 'General chit-chat area'.

Someone always wants to talk politics in any forum though - with the inevitable disagreements!

It would be a sad world if we all agreed on everything.  

Edited by manders
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No it wouldn't ;-D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally agree... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't think May will last long she just looks un sure of herself

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am glad the "Talk about anything" forum is to stay. It did disappear from my screen for some time. I thought it might have been pulled.

Was there something about free speach.

Ian.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 23/06/2017 at 6:22 PM, Deltatango301 said:

Don't think May will last long she just looks un sure of herself

Never thought i'd miss Cameron!  I think its a good thing that the conservatives don't have too much power, otherwise they'd be introducing far too much right wing stuff, on the other hand being as weak as they are right now is not good either.

Labour doesnt seem any better, they do know how to work a crowd and bribe voters, not dissimilar to trumps methodology, but behind the glitz all are all those weird extreme left policies.  What a mess!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who would want to be Primeminster with what's happened 

Brexit

Bad Election

Terror attacks

The Fire

Perhaps all the party's can get along with each other and no one has to much clout

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Deltatango301 said:

 

Perhaps all the party's can get along with each other and no one has to much clout

 

I wouldn`t hold my breath on that one Terry:roll:

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have lived in Frankfurt for 11 years, and I have yet to meet an ex-pat living over here that agrees with Brexshit.

My in-laws are bewildered as to why we want to leave (they are German).

My German is not too bad, but I will have to improve it to get the B1, so I can become a citizen.

MAD times we are living in... :shock:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, DP_FFM said:

My in-laws are bewildered as to why we want to leave (they are German).

That's the main reason behind the result of the vote I think - there wasn't enough about the benefits of staying. Nobody wanting to stay spoke of any positives - the only reason to stay was to prevent economic disaster and the reasons for leaving were all positive.

Anyway, we'll all have to batten down the hatches on March 29th 2019 because the economy will tank the day after.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now