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DaveC

N. Edwardsiana

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Almost certainly yes and given the prices it's reaching he won't be the last... Probably contacting Ebay wont help but worth a try, whoever is supposed to protect these things in the malaysian government may be worth tipping off.

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What's to say they are even the real deal. By the time the plants grow to a recognisable size (that's if they even germinate) the seller could be long gone.

Regards Neil

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What's to say they are even the real deal. By the time the plants grow to a recognisable size (that's if they even germinate) the seller could be long gone.

It's currently bidding at £100 so it's an expensive gamble!!

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They may turn out to be fake or just not viable, personally i think the real issue is that if you can earn two months pay climbing up Mt Kinabalu and stealing a few seeds, your going to keep doing it!

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Even if you manage to get ebay to stop the auction, the seller will still find another outlet. For example, they could contact the current highest bidder at the time of the auction being stopped and offer them direct. It is impossible to stop this sort of trade happening because there will always be a market for it from people who simply must have the rarest plants in their collection.

Judging by the high bidding price, the person currently winning must know that they are an rare species so if they turn out to be non-genuine seeds they knew the risk.

Edited by mobile

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Just proves some people are buying certain plants for their own gain.

They are willing to buy poached plants that may not even be real !!!

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Surely this is a record price for Nepenthes seed, and still one day to go too! I recon they will fetch over £200.

Has anyone ever sold Edwardsiana commercially?

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I won't go into the legality (or not) of the seed being offered.

But I have noticed that there appears to be a lot of 'bashing up' and critising anyone who just happens to get high bids for any CP they offer on Ebay. Is this just jealousy ??

I've been looking at this since there was only 1 bid (now 40 bids & £127) I suspect that this seed is genuine. This trader sells a lot of different seeds not just Neps and has previously (and currently) sold hybrid Nep seeds which are from their own collection (now in the CPS seed bank) - I've previously had discusions with him about some I nearly bought (but other big spending, meant I didn't then have the money).

If you check the bid history you will see it says "buy it now price is nolonger available" so if the first bidder wasn't such a cheap skate they could have had this seed at a very reasonable price, my guess is around £20 (but I'm not sure as I missed this) and also no one would even have know about it. You can buy 500 sanguinea seeds from him for £10.

We have no idea of all the species of flowering age being grown in these asian/indonesian countries. Has anyone actually asked if this seed is from a wild or cultivated source ? And certainly being from Thailand is unlikely he just poped out & poached it himself. Maybe it's illegal maybe not, maybe he knows & maybe not, but until someone has some evidence guys, lets try and stop all this bad mouthing people, just because other people want to give them a load of money - it's not their fault.

As, regards the price. Even if only 10% germinate and the price goes to £200, that's still only £4 a plant. Most of us on here would readily pay at least £20 for an edwarsiana and probably a lot more.

Growing Neps from seed is the only way to really protect the plants we so love ( TC is a false proffit). It is far less damaging to collect some seed than to uproot the entire plant. Then pretty soon the demand for that plant is met (they can produce thousands of seeds) and no further threat from poaching. The biggest threat they face is from the very land they grow on being developed. That doesn't however mean I condone the illegal collection of Nep seed, I don't. But it is certainly about the smallest of threats which face them.

Ok that's my rant over :biggrin:

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I won't go into the legality (or not) of the seed being offered.

But I have noticed that there appears to be a lot of 'bashing up' and critising anyone who just happens to get high bids for any CP they offer on Ebay. Is this just jealousy ??

Not at all, if these were mirabilis seeds I think we'd say good luck to him

I've been looking at this since there was only 1 bid (now 40 bids & £127) I suspect that this seed is genuine. This trader sells a lot of different seeds not just Neps and has previously (and currently) sold hybrid Nep seeds which are from their own collection (now in the CPS seed bank) - I've previously had discusions with him about some I nearly bought (but other big spending, meant I didn't then have the money).

If you check the bid history you will see it says "buy it now price is nolonger available" so if the first bidder wasn't such a cheap skate they could have had this seed at a very reasonable price, my guess is around £20 (but I'm not sure as I missed this) and also no one would even have know about it. You can buy 500 sanguinea seeds from him for £10.

We have no idea of all the species of flowering age being grown in these asian/indonesian countries. Has anyone actually asked if this seed is from a wild or cultivated source ? And certainly being from Thailand is unlikely he just poped out & poached it himself. Maybe it's illegal maybe not, maybe he knows & maybe not, but until someone has some evidence guys, lets try and stop all this bad mouthing people, just because other people want to give them a load of money - it's not their fault.

The seed is from Malaysia and is not grown in Thailand, the probability is it's wild collected.

As, regards the price. Even if only 10% germinate and the price goes to £200, that's still only £4 a plant. Most of us on here would readily pay at least £20 for an edwarsiana and probably a lot more.

Growing Neps from seed is the only way to really protect the plants we so love ( TC is a false profit). It is far less damaging to collect some seed than to uproot the entire plant. Then pretty soon the demand for that plant is met (they can produce thousands of seeds) and no further threat from poaching. The biggest threat they face is from the very land they grow on being developed. That doesn't however mean I condone the illegal collection of Nep seed, I don't. But it is certainly about the smallest of threats which face them.

I partially agree with you on this one, seed collecting is a relatively minor problem, but I think this is an exception. I'm not sure that TC argument is proven, it helps to supply the mass market with cheap plants which would otherwise only come from wild collected seed. Poached or not, the demand for these seeds will continue for a long time, even if the seeds are viable are germinated and grown on successfully, it will be years (up to 15?) before these plants can reproduce. The relatively huge price they are attracting will be a huge temptation to poach more seeds or entire plants.

Ok that's my rant over :biggrin:

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But I have noticed that there appears to be a lot of 'bashing up' and critising anyone who just happens to get high bids for any CP they offer on Ebay. Is this just jealousy ??

This is certainly not the case with me, I have no wish to have this plant or seed. The issue here is how the seed was obtained. Maybe it was cultivated, maybe it was collected from the wild, who's to say. Whichever the case, such high prices will encourage others to collect the seed, and some of these may do so from the wild.

Edited by mobile

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Anyway...has this plant ever been sold commercially, I seem to remember Wistuba offering a very few number of seedlings a long long time ago. I hope if becomes more available as it’s such a great plant!

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damn! that is truly madness. 127 EUR for seed which are reputed to be very very hard to germinate + can't be verified. I tell you one thing this is going to do: It might cause a number of new "FALSE" N. edwardsiana seed to pop up. By the time they germinate and the plants verified, the seller will be long gone. LOL! Its sad that nepenthes species can't be differentiated by looking at the seed. :biggrin:

Edited by vraev

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THE BELOW IS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE ON THIS FORUM, JUST A GENERALISATION

I'm personally not jealous of people spending money on the plants, just frustrated that alot of people buying up all these plants are doing so for selfish reasons.

I see people posting pictures of "wanted" plants that are many years old & filling up huge pots. If only these people took a division every two years to spread the plant around im sure so called "rare" plants wouldn't be "rare" for very long.

Some people don't seem to care about sharing the plants around once they have them in their possession. Why I don't know, but it isn't helping the spread of plants within cultivation and is keeping plant prices of some clones/species/plants out of reach of us mere mortals.

Regarding this auction. I followed it from the beginning, well from the 1st bid. I would place a decent size bet on who ever wins it will germinate & sell for huge profits (£20 - £30 profit on each) instead of germinating and selling them at cost, which is a little unrealistic, or for a few £'s profit (£2 - £5 on each).

I guess we will know for sure if I am right or wrong in a few years time :)

Edited by -=Joel=-

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Surely this is a record price for Nepenthes seed, and still one day to go too! I recon they will fetch over £200.

I don't think so!

I paid nearly £60 for 35 seeds of N.deaniana............ do the maths.

So it was a charity auction not ebay............had absolutely no bearing on my bidding.

One thing is sure. If a commercial grower buys these seeds, then most collectors will be able to buy one for £100 or so, this to my mind can only reduce the pressure on the wild population.

I am afraid I find it hard to condemn the collection of wild seed that may have only a 5% chance in the wild of growing to maturity and 500 seeds sounds like about half a spike, not dozens of spikes.

I do know and agree that there should be laws to protect the endangered, but I feel CITES has a long way to go before it actually benefits those it "protects"..........If you put a fence around a Polar Bear it will starve to death...if you put a "fence" around a plant population it will succumb to environmental changes (natural or man-made).

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.... 500 seeds sounds like about half a spike, not dozens of spikes.

a rough estimation it would be less than 1/2 of the spike ie around 8 pods.

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It went for £390!!

That buyer (someone in Singapore) has got to be hoping it is what it says. Hope they know what they are doing - Singapore isn't the obvious climate for edwardsiana

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It went for £390!!

That buyer (someone in Singapore) has got to be hoping it is what it says. Hope they know what they are doing - Singapore isn't the obvious climate for edwardsiana

Wait...Singapore?! No Joke! I've got to find out who this joker is and what he/she is going to do with the seeds. Whoever it is sure ain't saying anything on the local forums. If the seed is genuine(what are the chances? But IF...), its going to be a serious waste if they end up in the hands of some newbie who can't get a single one to germinate.

And If, just IF this joker does have some fancy highland setup and is able to germinate and raise a bunch of seedlings...well, what are the chances that he/she isn't planning to sell them off at some crazy price? I'm sorry to say this, but living in Singapore myself, I can tell you that the CP scene here is full of political and/or money hungry people, so...yeah...not pretty.

Of course, if it turns out that the person doing this is for the good of the community(bringing down the price), then hey, what can I say...that's one saint that is...

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Wait...Singapore?! No Joke! I've got to find out who this joker is and what he/she is going to do with the seeds. Whoever it is sure ain't saying anything on the local forums. If the seed is genuine(what are the chances? But IF...), its going to be a serious waste if they end up in the hands of some newbie who can't get a single one to germinate.

And If, just IF this joker does have some fancy highland setup and is able to germinate and raise a bunch of seedlings...well, what are the chances that he/she isn't planning to sell them off at some crazy price? I'm sorry to say this, but living in Singapore myself, I can tell you that the CP scene here is full of political and/or money hungry people, so...yeah...not pretty.

Of course, if it turns out that the person doing this is for the good of the community(bringing down the price), then hey, what can I say...that's one saint that is...

Hey ifurita,

This guy dont come from any farm, nor is he a newbie like you, atleast he is in the cp world longer then you.

He does have highland setup and he is not going to sell if it germinate.

Please dont make sweeping statment of Singaporean, mirrow yourself before making judgement.

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Hey ifurita,

This guy dont come from any farm, nor is he a newbie like you, atleast he is in the cp world longer then you.

He does have highland setup and he is not going to sell if it germinate.

Please dont make sweeping statment of Singaporean, mirrow yourself before making judgement.

Woah Delwin,

So you know who ths guy is? Well, I'm sure the guys here are all very curious to find out all about him...

Anyway, I never said he was from a farm and while it is possible that he's been in the CP world longer than me, you obviously don't know how long I've been growing CPs nor the range of CPs which are happily growing at my place, including a fair number which our local self-proclaimed "experts" have claimed to be "impossible" to grow here.

As for not selling them, it does remain to be seen. Sure it'd be great if he doesn't, but either he's planning a lot of trades, to just give them away or he's not expecting a decent germination rate.

As for that last bit, you obviously haven't been around to have seen the various people who have been trying to make a quick buck, nor do you seem to be aware of the various sales of wild collected plants which have been going on for longer than I've even been in the local CP scene. There's even been a fair number of plant thefts going on, the last I heard was quite recent. As for politics, I know that a LOT of very experienced CP cultivators have either quit or are shying away from the local CP scene. I've taken the brunt of the local politics myself and just simply because I refuse to worship those afore mentioned self-proclaimed "experts". Sure, not every Singaporean is like that and I know a fair number of nice ones, but there are enough of those who aren't to contaminate the CP scene here, so I stand by what I said: Not pretty.

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Woah Delwin,

So you know who ths guy is? Well, I'm sure the guys here are all very curious to find out all about him...

Anyway, I never said he was from a farm and while it is possible that he's been in the CP world longer than me, you obviously don't know how long I've been growing CPs nor the range of CPs which are happily growing at my place, including a fair number which our local self-proclaimed "experts" have claimed to be "impossible" to grow here.

As for not selling them, it does remain to be seen. Sure it'd be great if he doesn't, but either he's planning a lot of trades, to just give them away or he's not expecting a decent germination rate.

As for that last bit, you obviously haven't been around to have seen the various people who have been trying to make a quick buck, nor do you seem to be aware of the various sales of wild collected plants which have been going on for longer than I've even been in the local CP scene. There's even been a fair number of plant thefts going on, the last I heard was quite recent. As for politics, I know that a LOT of very experienced CP cultivators have either quit or are shying away from the local CP scene. I've taken the brunt of the local politics myself and just simply because I refuse to worship those afore mentioned self-proclaimed "experts". Sure, not every Singaporean is like that and I know a fair number of nice ones, but there are enough of those who aren't to contaminate the CP scene here, so I stand by what I said: Not pretty.

Maybe we can set a time to meet up some day

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Guest Lou

Hi all,

I am puzzled by the tone of the responses in this thread.

I am a new member living in South America (I live at 2100m in a cloud forest, so I can grow highland Nepenthes as yard plants!). I created and now manage some large protected areas, one of them a sort of "baby cousin" to Mt Kinabalu, complete with extraordinary evolutionary radiations of endemic species, mostly orchids. We have trouble keeping orchid collectors from stealing our plants. A Peruvian friend manages a reserve there which contains Phragmipedium kovachii, a recently-discovered giant round purple ladyslipper almost a foot across, which was selling for $10000 per plant initially. Needless to say, these plants are being plucked from his reserve by the truckload, and short of posting armed guards in the middle of the forest 24 hours a day, there is little he can do. Laws protecting the plant cannot stop this.

The only way to eliminate these problems is to encourage widespread distribution of seeds and seed-grown plants as rapidly as possible. As long as this guy didn't break any laws (and there is no evidence that he did), he is a hero. He may have saved 500 adult plants from being ripped out of their habitat. I cannot understand why some posters hope he doesn't sell them. I hope he does. (I'd buy one!!)

Am I missing something?

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Hi all,

I am puzzled by the tone of the responses in this thread.

I am a new member living in South America (I live at 2100m in a cloud forest, so I can grow highland Nepenthes as yard plants!). I created and now manage some large protected areas, one of them a sort of "baby cousin" to Mt Kinabalu, complete with extraordinary evolutionary radiations of endemic species, mostly orchids. We have trouble keeping orchid collectors from stealing our plants. A Peruvian friend manages a reserve there which contains Phragmipedium kovachii, a recently-discovered giant round purple ladyslipper almost a foot across, which was selling for $10000 per plant initially. Needless to say, these plants are being plucked from his reserve by the truckload, and short of posting armed guards in the middle of the forest 24 hours a day, there is little he can do. Laws protecting the plant cannot stop this.

The only way to eliminate these problems is to encourage widespread distribution of seeds and seed-grown plants as rapidly as possible. As long as this guy didn't break any laws (and there is no evidence that he did), he is a hero. He may have saved 500 adult plants from being ripped out of their habitat. I cannot understand why some posters hope he doesn't sell them. I hope he does. (I'd buy one!!)

Am I missing something?

Hi Lou,

I don't think your missing something, you probably have a rather unique perspective on the whole issue, people like myself have to rely on what we read or what we are told and make our own decisions. Given that we live in an industrially developed society its very difficult to imagine what the impacts or for example of seed poaching would be on a third world or developing country such as Borneo were the high value of the seeds/plants might be hard to resist.

Does advertising the fact that these plants are valuable increase the collecting or does taking the seeds help to stop collecting, we here, can only guess unless people with real experience of trying to conserve plants in the wild such as yourself makes the effort to tell us.

In the case of these seeds the high price might have indicated to local people that the plants are highly valuable and might have increased poaching of plants. Would it save 500 plants being dug up? well it might have if it had got into tc, but the fact is they appear to have gone into private collectors hands and may/may not survive into maturity (or even germinate).

With nepenthes also there's a growing trend to get wild seeds/plants as tc plants are considered inferior, by some.

I've argued both opposing views on different forums, and found the responses on this forum to be quite mild compared to some other forums.

Your views on this are both enlightening, interesting and very valuable, thanks for posting them! It would be really interesting to here your experiences.

Edited by manders

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Guest Lou

It turns out that you can't really hide the value of these plants for long. especially not in these days, with internet cafes in every small town in third world countries. I would guess that many people who live near Mt Kinabalu (not necessarily the poorest people in the backcountry, but well-connected and ambitious people in towns and cities nearby) have long been aware of the value of these plants. In fact their ideas about the value might well be exaggerated. Here in Ecuador, there was a recent international orchid show, with much press. The intention was to raise awareness about the importance of orchids in the wild, and to highlight the threats facing them. However, the effect was very much the opposite. The press picked up on the few really pricy orchids, and left the impression among readers that just about any orchid was worth $50-$100. This was disseminated through the whole country. Following this event, in my town of 25000 there were 80 petitions to the environment ministry for permits to make orchid gardens. Most will be stocked with wild-collected mother plants. A disaster.

My plan to fight this is to introduce cheap laboratory-produced hybrids into the local trade. Next to these flashy hybrids, nobody (except a fanatic collector) would buy the native species. Maybe this same strategy would work with a certain segment of the CP community, though I realize there are many people who really do want to collect the species. Furthermore there are no readily-available hybrids among those toothed-peristome species (edwadsiana, villosa, macrophylla, and hamata). Get to work, hybridizers!!! Imagine what could come of breeding and selecting this group for extreme colors and forms, all with hybrid vigor! This might cut the demand for the pure species.

I wish the new owner of those seeds well, and I hope he manages to germinate and raise them, and I hope he makes some available for sale at a fair price. As I said, I would buy one or two. I hope he also hybridizes them with other toothed-peristome species. And I hope seeds of edwardsiana, hamata, and macrophylla become more widely available. I would buy some. As someone pointed out, the per-seed price of this edwardsiana was not really unreasonable for such a rare species. I only wish he had sold them in smaller lots so that they would have been more widely dispersed (which decreases the probability of some accident wiping out all 500 at once).

There is some merit to the opinion that seed-grown plants are superior to TC plants, in the sense that preserving the genetic diversity of the species is important if it should ever become extinct in the wild and need to be re-introduced. Genetic bottlenecks have depressed the vigor of some rare species. However, 500 individuals from one capsule are not going to be very diverse genetically. Many kinds of DNA (eg mitochondrial DNA) are inherited only from the mother. So those genes are identical in all 500 seeds.

I look forward to further discussion of these issues, and help from the experts on Nepenthes when I have problems with mine. Thanks for your welcoming comments, Lou

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