Guest Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 Good evening, Is there a difference between the clones C.f. 'true Giant' (Harald Weiner) and C.f. ' German Giant' ? Both clones I cultivate for a long time and don't see any differences beside of the color. Many thanks, carnicollector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.lividum Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 The pitcher shape. The german giant have often the lid that it's vertical opened or curved, the colour in the adult pitchers (always depends from the light exposition) have a deep brown and red colouration on the sac and a really dark red "teeth". The true giant have long pitchers slim than some other giant clones like "big boy" or "hummer giant" Alvise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 neither of these plants have been published as cultivars, to be honest I thought they were the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.lividum Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Good morning,In my opinion the vertical opened lid is not characteristical for this clone. Also other plants such as the "normal" clone open it's lid when the weather is sunny but not too hot (especially during winter). The deep brown, very dark colortion appears also by my usual Cephalotus. Is there an exactly plant registration of both clones? Thank you for your answer! :-) sincerley, Bindig i'm not talking about an occasional opening. i'm talkin about a dimorphism of the lid. Anyway, the colouration and the morphological differences are important to determine the clones, if not, the eden black cannot exist ;). to determine a cultivar, or a clone, the taxonomical key are the only way. @Steve Nice to see you Steve! i've heared a lot of times about the "giant clones discussions" i remember about an article of Agustin Franco about giants cephalotus. It'a discussion theme from many years, i hope that in a near future all will be cleared about those clones. at the moment i'm studing and observing all the "morphological differences" (not the single case, but the general differences) between the different kind of clones and giant clones for my project. will be fantastic if you tell to us all your observation about the giant ones. :) Alvise Alvise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Hi Alvise I forget H.lividum is you, you don't post very often! I don't think I have ever seen "True Giant", do you have any photos? do you know the origins of "German Giant and "True Giant"? thanks Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.lividum Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 If i remember well, the first giant clone before the big boy, was appear in the 80's and was the true giant. For many years German giant was the synonym of the true giant, and it's a discussion already opened. Times ago i've heard about the possibility that the true giant was not a real clone, but a propagation of a wild plant that produce real bigger pitchers. Here in italy there's a particular clone that was introduced from Frace in the early 80's that remain deep green also put in the sun (like the netherland clones) but that produce incredible bigger pitchers (7.5-8 cm) very large and consistent leaves (i've seen a 6 cm round leaf!) and a lid on the pitchers really big than normal. I've also seen and have in cultivation different giant clones, all different in the pitcher shape between theirselves. The German giant for what i know it's the selection on "giant" plants crossed, like the classic clones origin. tonight when i arrive at home i provide to show you some pics. (i'm at work now ) Alvise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.lividum Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Here i am. Those are the pics that i've promised today. this one it's the pitcher's shape of my german giant. those two are the pics of the 80's (presumed) "true giant" clone. notice in the first pic the giant leaf that was almost 6 cm in diameter. the second pics it's of an adult plant, the biggset pitcher size was about 7.5 cm, i thik that this clone it's the real true giant, completly different from the other giant clones. wait your opinions. Alvise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agustin franco Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Hi H. lividum: Mr Harald Weiner called a cephalotus plant which produces large size pitchers True Giant, but as far as i am aware, Mr. Wistuba obtained this plant from Mr. Weiner and it's commercially propagated in Germany, hence the name "German Giant". However, it seems that cephalotus genetics are very much unstable as the so called "Giant forms" don't produce giant pitchers on every new leaf but in some. As a matter of fact, i have some clones of cephalotus which produced large pitchers when they were first obtained, but now, cuttings which came from the same plants that originally produced large pitchers, are now producing regular size pitchers of 1 to 1 1/4 inches in lenght. I think that there is a misconception about Giant cephalotus. Most of us expect the plant to produce large pitchers on every leaf, but this phenomenon just does not happen. Some pitchers may be huge, but others may be just normal. I also know that under some circumstances the whole plant produce large pitchers, but a subsequent cutting of the same plant, does not follow the growth pattern of the parent plant. What factors are involved in such phenomena?. Only more experimentation may give us an answer. Gus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.lividum Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Hi Gus! nice to meet you finally! I know about the fact that the "giant form" doesn't produce every leaves and pitchers oversize, and i also know that there's a lot of cultivation trick (expecially with the illumination time) to obtain giant pitchers. the strange fact it's that the "clone" of the last picture that i have posted (i have one yourg plant of him and a cutting made this autumn) have an evolution time and a structure very different between the other clones. that plant infact produce really big leaves and oversized pitchers, every pitcher it's oversized than a plant of the same age. As you can notice the leaves have a different structure than the normal ones. my plant in only 1 years it's nearly a 20 cm pot with young non functionally pitches nearly 2-3 cm. the only adult plant that i've seen from this clone has a lot of pitchers between 7-8 cm. in this picture you can see from left to right: Normal one, another normal, German giant , an presumed "giant" clone (that plant have only one year) all the pot are between 20 and 25 cm Alvise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaC Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 (edited) This is interesting as I have understood the several one clone well is not defined and described this is right? Edited December 17, 2007 by AndreaC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.lividum Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 This is interesting as I have understood the several one clone well is not defined and described this is right? The only registered and described giant cultivar it's the Hummer Giant. Alvise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaC Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Ah OK, thanks you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agustin franco Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 (edited) Hi Alvise: Nice to meet you too, by the way, have a merry christmas and a happy new year. Now, going back to our original discussion on cephalotus growth patterns. It seems that as the plant gets more mature, the pitchers get bigger too, even though, it's not surprising to find small diameter plants with a couple of giant pitchers, the frequency for appearance of large pitchers increases with mature plants (giant forms). It'd be nice if you could attempt to photograph the pitchers of the giant forms, preferably with a ruler next to them to study the relative size. thanks Gus Edited December 17, 2007 by agustin franco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.lividum Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 (edited) Hi Gus! No problem, during winter and spring i provide to make a lot of shots of the young pitchers with a ruler and i'll made some comparative tables between the normal cuttings and the "giant" cuttings to comparate plants of the same age. Obviously i keep you informed... another shot of the plant before repotting. all the pitchers are up to 2 cm :) Alvise Edited December 17, 2007 by H.lividum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glider14 Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 The only registered and described giant cultivar it's the Hummer Giant.Alvise i thought 'Eden Black' is also registered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 'Eden Black' is published (not yet registered), but is not a "giant" clone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 "Big Boy" originated from a UK nursery in the early 1980's. The plant was found to grow consistently larger than other forms and was informally named. I suggest that you source an example from a UK grower. Your post is the first mention I have heard of "Big Boy" being in the US and it is a distinct possibility that it is not the same plant. A few photos of a small example of "Big Boy" taken earlier in the year: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Who knows? The so called "giants" may all be the same clone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 The problem is that we all rely on who supplied our plants for the accuracy of identification and sometimes errors are made. My "Big Boy" plant was supplied by the grower who named the plant and so I know the plant is "the real thing". I can say the same for my 'Hummer's Giant' - I know the exact path the plant travelled before it reached my collection and so I know it to be genuine. If you are uncertain about the validity of a named plant, then you should really make this clear when passing it on to other growers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agustin franco Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 Who knows? The so called "giants" may all be the same clone! Hi Aidan: Your hypothesis of the giants being all the same clone may be possible, but very unlikely. phenotypical characteristics are different except for size. Gus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amar Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 So, may we assume that Giant, True Giant and German Giant are the same clone? http://users.humboldt.edu/rziemer/Franco/C...larisGiant.html (I have recently obtained a Cephalotus follicularis Giant, it originally came from Wistuba as a TC-plant. Wistuba himself had obtained the plant from Harald Weiner.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Hmm interesting information Amar - I didnt realise wistubas came from Harold Weiner. We need someone to grow them all side by side in the same conditions for a while!! Personally I cant tell much difference between any of my ceph clones, though most of them are small and grow in varying conditions which doesn help. I do have 2 german giants, ni dea if they are the same plant, one that originates from harold weiner...sounds like they could be the same. I dont have such a keen eye for cephs, the subtle differences for me are too subtle and I dont think I've managed to get any full size yet, no doubt that would help highlight the differences....or atleast I'm hoping so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Maier Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Hi, the original Giant clone came from Harald Weiner. And the German Giant is the same clone, but propagated by TC, mainly by Thomas Carow. Best regards Matze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petesredtraps Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 Hi,the original Giant clone came from Harald Weiner. And the German Giant is the same clone, but propagated by TC, mainly by Thomas Carow. Best regards Matze But what of the so-called "Munich Giant", does anyone know any specifics about that plant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam2045 Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Think I'll add my two cents to this discussion. Remove the labels from your giant clones and grow them alongside your regular cephs. If all the plants look the same, sell them as regular cephs. This way, buyers will not be disappointed if the giant clones they had purchased never produce giant traps, consistently. In my opinion, giants should produce giant traps regardless who is growing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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